Question on total depravity/social restraint paper I am writing

Sept. 13, 2002 | myself

[rwfromkansas]

Calvinist brethren, in my Honors Comp class I am writing an "illustration" (example) paper. It is very short (like a page and a half). All I need to do is have a thesis and three main points, a topic sentence and flushed out example supporting each topic sentence.

The topic I am looking at writing about is total depravity/societal restraint on human behavior. I need several angles to approach this at. The first one is that without enough restraining authority to hold back people's potential, chaos results (for example, when enough people get massed together, activities like riots and the mass groping in Central Park a few years ago can result). This is one angle...but I need two other main points that I can have at least one major example for. I am racking my brain and not coming up with much. It doesn't seem like there are that many issues I can examine with depravity which have obvious illustrations/conclusions.

I would appreciate any help. I obviously don't want you to write the paper for me, but any help on how I could approach this with enough info for three main points in my thesis would be appreciated.

I have not been able to attend to the Calvinist/Arminian threads lately. I hope everything is staying semi-civil...:)

[rwfromkansas]

Thanks for any help

[rwfromkansas]

bump for some help

[rwfromkansas]

bump for help

[rwfromkansas]

bump for help

[Wrigley]

How about the riots in LA or Cincinnat.

Or even on a smaller scale, look at the James Byrd murder in Texas.

[PresbyRev]

The topic (central thesis) then, is that b/c of 'total depravity' there must be 'social restraint' --- i.e. some type of outside or objective limitations on human capacity to violate the rights of others, kill, steal, rape, etc.?

If that is the case, perhaps going with national, group, individual? Ex. The Turkish destruction/genocide of Armenian Christians almost a century ago or Nazi Germany. Mass gropings or 'wildings' of late in NYC or elsewhere. Perhaps a serial killer or rapist or one of the corporate thieves in some of the latest Wall Street scandals. (?)

Is that sort of what you are going at? Or am I way off the mark?
JDL

[PresbyRev]

Also, you may hit chalcedon.edu for some resources, quick quotes regarding the role of 'law' in providing a positive structure upon which to construct the 'how to's and 'why nots' of human social relationships. Positive injunctions/sanctions on evil.(?)

[PresbyRev]

The dismantling of Jim Crow may be another example of placing legal constraints on personal behavior that has gone awry.

[PresbyRev]

Heading off to the office at Springfield PC for now (so I'll be away from FR for awhile) to finish up Sunday's sermon on the Regulative and Informed Principles of Worship. Hope your paper comes together. I was speaking with some Presby. or another and they noted that your college is, in their estimation, a fine institution on a number of counts.

[PresbyRev]

Sorry - another illustration of human (depravity) social behavior gone to seed may be the Rwanda Hutsi/Tutsi massacre. Also, popping 'mob behaviors' into google or a sociology search engine/website might yield some good info.

[jude24]

I'm guessing that for this paper, you need to make arguments for Radical Depravity apart from the Scriptures.

That's a challenge, but not impossible.

I would use a modified version of the C.S. Lewis approach from the early chapters of Mere Christianity. I would demonstrate that apart from culture, evil exists. Start with the educated, industrial cultures -- and was there ever a better-educated culture than Nazi Germany? Was there ever a more affluent culture than ours? Yet immorality is epidemic. Then examine the idea of the noble savage -- is it western culture that leads to immorality? But theres a reason why the term "savage" was around -- because they were no better.

CS Lewis argues that we betray our knowledge of morality when we object that we have been wronged, but try to demonstrate why, in this particular situation, we are some kind of a special case. "If you only knew what kind of a witch my wife is, you'd have an affair too." That kind of thing. That we consistently fail to live up to our own moral standards. This is the essence of the arguments of Romans 2.

From there, you need to demonstrate that we're completely selfish. Not hard.

Then you've proved total depravity.

[onedoug]

My Lai. Leadership failure.

[Hank Kerchief]

From there, you need to demonstrate that we're completely selfish.

You mean, "subjectivism," as opposed to, "rational self-interest"? Right! (I hope that's what you meant, unless you're an altruist.)

Hank

[rwfromkansas]

I should mention I attend a Christian college. Religion is allowed, even welcomed. I might decide to include some Scripture, but would prefer to use mostly non-Scriptural illustrations of depravity.

[rwfromkansas]

That is heading in the right direction. I think that is an interesting idea....mentioning the need for national restraint from the capacity of people in power to let their depravity fully rear itself, then a smaller scale...groups, then individual need for restraint. I can't think of any individual examples right now where the conditions were ripe for depraved behavior due to no mitigating forces. You have helped me along the line with examples for that, but I need to think about how to illustrate that a lack of outside restraints unleashed their true evil potential.

[PresbyRev]

My brain is sort of fried, as I'm trying to get a revised website up and having trouble w/ the ftp'ing. So, I may babble a bit, this is sort of stream of consciousness.

It would seem to me, that on an individual level, the restraint is knowledge of the law - whether you were taking a theonomic, natural or civil approach. So, John Doe knows he shouldn't kill his wife. But, because he becomes jacked up on crack or discovers she is 'cheating' on him, etc. he pops her with his pistol. That is expression of individual depravity - in spite of law, in disregard of sanction. I suppose what I am thinking is that individual sin/law breaking/violation of others, is itself an example of the disregard of social restraint/law.

Indian tribes in America before the settlement warred, killed, enslaved. Yet, they had tribal customs/laws. In the novel 'Lord of the Flies' - even on the island, the boys had set up some bare type of social stratification, mores and rules. Only a Robinson Crusoe type figure would lack 'social restraint.' So, it isn't 'lack' of outside restraint, but depravity/sin/lawbreaking in spite of 'restraint.' (?) As I say, I'm going pretty cross-eyed and can't myself think of an individual ex./w/o social restraints/constraints on his/her action.

[xzins]

Total Depravity

1. Bent or Broken
2. An unbelieving mother's love for her child - goodness, instinct, or accident.
3. Dahmer and Hitler: The difference between utter depravity and total depravity.

Do you all have any more chapter suggestions for young rw?

[aimhigh]

Although I'm not a Calvinist, total depravity is the one doctrine he was right about. In terms of human experience, the clearest example of universal depravity is in every childhood. It's called the "terrible two's", where children, by nature, become rebellious to their parents.

[rwfromkansas]

Interesting thoughts. One thing I am thinking about for the individual is the need for an external "restraint" against our depravity coming loose (and I need to be cautious in how I approach this because total depravity does not mean mankind will choose to murder if given the choice; he may choose to commit adultery or something...all total depravity talks about is that mankind is totally enslaved to sin and will always choose sin). This external restraint is the law, combined with enforcement of the law (police, courts etc). However, the reason why we need this to try to keep individuals in line is because INTERNAL restraints......a conscience, an inborn sense of right and wrong, fail. I think I am going to make a note to myself about this so I can get an idea of how to outline this.