Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[xzins]

In the following, we have Paul giving a clear time span from the return of Christ until the end when Paul says that "Christ must reign" during that period.

This clearly ties to John's 1000 year reign mentioned in Revelation 5 & 20 (see post #2495)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Paul and The Time Span of the Millennial Kingdom in 1 Cor 15: 22-26

Text	Scripture	Associated Resurrection	Time
1 Co 15: 23a	23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;	Jesus’ Own was the First Resurrection	Time Point: Resurrection Sunday, approx 33 AD
1 Co 15: 23b	23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.	Those who are Christ’s (those who are dead in Christ + the rapture of those who are alive …1Th4:16-17)	Time Point: At the 2nd Coming of Christ
1 Co 15: 24-26	24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.	The Remainder Resurrected at the End	TIME SPAN Beginning at THE RETURN "He MUST REIGN" UNTIL All enemies, INCLUDING DEATH, destroyed.

[theAmbassador]

I think I have figured it out: Of course, PreMillennialism does have problems as well. These enemies of the Lord will masquerade as believers in this glorious kingdom reign of Christ on this earth. They are double minded and unstable in all their ways. As the Psalter puts it, "because Thy statutes are despised, with overwhelming grief I weep." So much for this "glorious" kingdom.

You should know that I am **NOT** describing Premillennialists in this paragraph, but Premillennialism. And that is an entirely different thing. It is the nonReformed Premillennialist xzins who has maintained that in this glorious reign of Christ on this sinful earth that there will be pretenders who will outwardly show all the signs of being converted to the Lord, but inward will be ravenous wolves waiting for the release of their master so that they can wage war upon the saints. He has even said that these people must be there so that ~WE~ will have somebody to rule over.

So, you see, my supposed non sequitur was perhaps not well stated, but I was referring to past assertions of Premillennialists here. This paradise is not so much about the rule of Christ as it is about the rule of man over man, which is why I quipped that Premillennialism is "much ado about nothing."

There are additional problems with this assertion of pretenders in the Lord's kingdom for as the Psalter puts it, "because Thy statutes are despised, with overwhelming grief I weep." How can I enjoy a glorious thousand year reign over the Lord's enemies when I know perfectly well that they despise His statues? Do I not hate them that hate Him with a perfect hatred? Will I not weep with overwhelming grief? Will I not still groan within myself that creation yet awaits the deliverance from the bondage of sin and decay?

There can be no vision of God in the face of Jesus Christ in this kingdom. Still only in a glass darkly.

Just how is this suppose to be a glorious reign?

For these reasons, and more, we Reformed Amillennialists don't have any excitement about the possibility that we might be wrong. What excites us Amillennialists is that when the Lord returns, it will be THE Day of vengeance of our God where He will flood the earth with fire (2 Peter 3:10). Then, we will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father.

[xzins]

You should know that I am **NOT** describing Premillennialists in this paragraph, but Premillennialism. And that is an entirely different thing. It is the nonReformed Premillennialist xzins who has maintained that in this glorious reign of Christ on this sinful earth that there will be pretenders who will outwardly show all the signs of being converted to the Lord, but inward will be ravenous wolves waiting for the release of their master so that they can wage war upon the saints. He has even said that these people must be there so that ~WE~ will have somebody to rule over.

At least you've given up on a scriptural argument. Now you're just saying that Xzins is the problem.

I have absolutely nothing to do with planning the millennial kingdom of Christ on this earth. He is totally in charge.

There is a sequence of events decreed upon this earth from now until the end. One of those events is the millennium.

During that time, we who believe in Christ and those who will have already died in Christ will have a different status and body and judgement than those unbelievers who are yet alive on the face of the earth at his coming. We will have a different status and body and judgement than those who will be born during the span of that kingdom. If the pre-trib rapturists are correct, we will have a different status and body and judgement than those who become believers during the tribulation and are still alive when at the beginning of that kingdom. "Now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face." Hallelujah!!

But the issue is the scripture in post 2495 and 2501. And the remainder of the bible. It was written by God.

[theAmbassador]

At least you've given up on a scriptural argument.

Please don't be directly insulting like that. I am making an argument against the Premillennial interpretation of scripture by using what the scripture teaches that this paradise will be like.

I have, despite Jerry's misunderstanding, fairly treated your statements about what scripture teaches. And that is charitable, after all. Just because you post your chart with scripture and an explaination, doesn't mean you are making a scriptural argument. I have yet to see a sound exposition, which demonstrate that Rev 20:4 teaches a glorious reign of Christ on this earth as Jean Chauvin has been so good to point out.

I'm merely, in charity, assuming that your reading is correct and pointing out a few of the problems with this interpretation. You declaration that they are not scriptural, when I can point to you the scriptures themselves, either makes you uncharitable or at worst a deceiver.

So, please lighten up a little and actually look at what I'm saying. It really is a good argument against Premillennialism. Your paradise has a few very obvious problems with it as far as the scriptures are concerned. This is why I'm not all that excited about the possibility of Premillennialism being correct.

[xzins]

Your paradise has a few very obvious problems with it as far as the scriptures are concerned. This is why I'm not all that excited about the possibility of Premillennialism being correct.

It's only fair for me to give you the benefit of the doubt about using my name in your post.

The scriptures point to the fact of a millennial reign of Christ on earth.

You are pointing out issues about sequence and status WITHIN that millennial kingdom when Christ reigns. That's not an argument against the validity of the millennial kingdom.

At best it merely points out that putting the sequence together is a lengthy task because there's so much about the millennial reign in the OT and NT prophecies.

[the_doc]

Hyper-Preterism, OTOH, is itself a prima facie Fatal Heresy -- or at least a Doctrine of Demons so vile that it irresistibly leads into Fatal Heresy if not recanted.

That's a succinct way of stating my position.

[theAmbassador]

It's only fair for me to give you the benefit of the doubt about using my name in your post.

?????????

The scriptures point to the fact of a millennial reign of Christ on earth.

Only the Premillennial interpretation of scriptures point to a millennial reign of Christ on this earth. We Amillennialists maintain that your interpretation is wrong.

You are pointing out issues about sequence and status WITHIN that millennial kingdom when Christ reigns. That's not an argument against the validity of the millennial kingdom.

I'm pointing out a glaring problem with Premillennialism. Remember that it is you Premillennialists here on FR who have maintained that there will be pretenders in the Lord's kingdom. I'm merely pointing out that this assertion has consequences which must be addressed Biblically:

• the Psalter: "because Thy statutes are despised, with overwhelming grief I weep."

• There can be no vision of God in the face of Jesus Christ in this kingdom. Still only in a glass darkly.

How can I enjoy a glorious thousand year reign over the Lord's enemies when I know perfectly well that they despise His statues? Do I not hate them that hate Him with a perfect hatred? Will I not weep with overwhelming grief? Will I not still groan within myself that creation yet awaits the deliverance from the bondage of sin and decay? How can there even be pretenders in the Lord's kingdom when I will have a glorified body and they will not? Or is it your assertion that someone with a glorified body can fall away?

[xzins]

You do maintain that our interpretation of scripture is wrong. You base everything on 2 Pe 3. We easily incorporate 2 Pe 3.

What do you mean by pretender? All of those born during the millennium will have the opportunity to believe for themselves and follow the Lord or to not believe. They will be ruled over in God's perfect kingdom by the Lord's own specific guidelines. Those who reject him will do so once Satan is released. They will demonstrate where their hearts really were by following Satan. They will seal their own fate.

[theAmbassador]

You do maintain that our interpretation of scripture is wrong. You base everything on 2 Pe 3. We easily incorporate 2 Pe 3.

No, I don't. However, you base everything on Rev 20. There, how do you like them apples?

What do you mean by pretender? All of those born during the millennium will have the opportunity to believe for themselves and follow the Lord or to not believe. They will be ruled over in God's perfect kingdom by the Lord's own specific guidelines. Those who reject him will do so once Satan is released. They will demonstrate where their hearts really were by following Satan. They will seal their own fate.

So, who will be having babies during the millennium? Those of us in glorified bodies or those who are not saved (pretenders), but happen to be alive when the Lord returns?

BTW, how can the Lord's kingdom be perfect when it will be sitting upon a foundation of decaying rocks (Romans 8:21). You Premillennialists tell me that the earth will still be needing to be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God; that this earth, and the perfect kingdom upon it will still be subjected to futility. Hmmmm!

Perhaps you would rather I stayed within the boundary of 2 Pe 3:10. ;^)

[xzins]

Go to the table at 2501 above and to the section for 1 Co 15:24-26. The scripture mentions the period of time during which the renewal is taking place. That aligns perfectly with Rev 20. It also aligns perfectly with the day of 2 Pe 3. And with the imprisonment of Is 24:22.

I'm sorry to ascribe to you the opinions of others. You are correct. It was another who said the entire case was made in 2 Pe 3.

What other scripture do you consider most significant to the amill position?

[theAmbassador]

I do not consider any single scripture most significant to the Amillennial interpretation of scripture. They must all agree.

So, since you did not adress either of my points in the last post, please answer these questions:

So, who will be having babies during the millennium? Those of us in glorified bodies or those who are not saved (pretenders), but happen to be alive when the Lord returns?

BTW, how can the Lord's kingdom be perfect when it will be sitting upon a foundation of decaying rocks (Romans 8:21). You Premillennialists tell me that the earth will still be needing to be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God; that this earth, and the perfect kingdom upon it will still be subjected to futility. Hmmmm!

[xzins]

I did address your post. I pointed you to the verses that demonstrate a "renewal" taking place. Is 65 makes clear that there will be babies being born. Those who have been raised with the Lord will be like the angels in heaven as Jesus has said. They will not be the ones having babies.

Those who are in unresurrected form on the earth will be the fertile ones having babies. According to the pretribs that will be living tribulation believers and tribulation Jews who miss the rapture but who become believers. According to the posttribs that will be those who are alive, not having been part of the armies of opposition, they will be ruled with a rod of iron. I imagine many will respond to the Lord in faith.

[theAmbassador]

Bear with me as you have left several points unanswered, but I needed a clarification on who will be having babies in the millennial kingdom.

Those who are in unresurrected form on the earth will be the fertile ones having babies. According to the pretribs that will be living tribulation believers and tribulation Jews who miss the rapture but who become believers. According to the posttribs that will be those who are alive, not having been part of the armies of opposition, they will be ruled with a rod of iron. I imagine many will respond to the Lord in faith.

If I understand Premillennialism correctly, you are now telling me that after the Lord returns to the earth, that there will still be the preaching of the gospel to the lost. This reminds me of the post mortem evangelism crowd. I was evidently unaware of just how dangerous Premillennialism really is. If this any way resembles Reformed Premillennialism, then I am quite frankly shocked that any believe it.

The continuation of this conversation may have to wait until tomorrow, but I do want to go back and visit some key scriptures which you must address directly or admit that Premillennialism is a fraud.

I'll leave you with this:

For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things,....

The High Priest I serve is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the true tabernacle. In other words, the Lord has already assumed His eternal glory, which He cannot perform if He were on earth.

[fortheDeclaration]

If I understand Premillennialism correctly, you are now telling me that after the Lord returns to the earth, that there will still be the preaching of the gospel to the lost

No, there will be no more 'preaching'(Zach 13:3-4) since God will be known everywhere, For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea (Hab.2:4)

[xzins]

The Bible says Jesus Christ will return and will reign on the earth for 1000 years. As much as it makes other theories more difficult to propose, you should be willing to consider it.

All peoples of all times so far have had the requirement to turn to the Lord in faith. Why would it be any different for humans in the millennial kingdom?

The issue isn't really what I'd prefer the picture of the future to be. The issue is what the Lord has actually revealed. What difference is it to you if babies are born if that's what the scriptures reveal? What difference is it if humans must believe in Christ in some millennial dispensation of grace if that's what the scriptures reveal?

Your arguments are totally off scripture now, and all you're doing is complaining about what you don't like that scripture reveals regarding the millennial kingdom. What gives? I think you realize those scriptures for Rev 5, Rev 20, and I Co 15 above are an irrefutable presentation.

[CCWoody]

I imagine many will respond to the Lord in faith. ~ xzins

No, there will be no more 'preaching'(Zach 13:3-4) since God will be known everywhere, For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea (Hab.2:4) ~ ftd

---

OK, xzins, which is it. Will there be people saved during the millennium or not. You Premills can't even agree on this fundamental aspect of Premillennialism.

[CCWoody]

Just for my curiosity, xzins, what argument in that post is not scriptural? I see that he is making a summary of what you told him, making a comment about that and then leaving you with an argument. Are you telling me that that argument is not scriptural?

[xzins]

No contradiction, Woody. The knowledge of the Lord will be present. People will still have to respond personally by faith. What's so hard about that?

What do you think is the strongest scripture that explains the "amillennial" position? Which one is it?

[xzins]

There is nothing there except complaining about something he doesn't cite. There is no attempt at all to use scripture. #2495 and #2501 use scripture. Go check them out. They're irrefutable.

[CCWoody]

No contradiction, Woody. The knowledge of the Lord will be present. People will still have to respond personally by faith. What's so hard about that?

Because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. It is scriptural. And how will they hear unless a preacher is sent to preach the gospel?

I guess that according to the PreMillennial interpretation of the Bible faith does not come by hearing.

What do you think is the strongest scripture that explains the "amillennial" position? Which one is it?

You mean like Rev 20:1-6 "makes the day" for the PreMills? The strongest scripture that explains the Amill position is the Gen 1:1 - Rev 22:21.