Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

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CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?

— WELL, NO LONGER!  HERE IS...

. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE
MILLENNIUM
	Annotated Summary by
	MARK A. MCNEIL

"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."

[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]

INTRODUCTION

There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology — regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.

It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.

PREMILLENNIALISM

The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.

Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.

AMILLENNIALISM

The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening.  It is, to them, a Present Reality.

POSTMILLENNIALISM

The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.

This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.

Spurgeon's VIEW  

With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* — especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.

*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial" — yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!

Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...

"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]

Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming.  Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.

"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]

[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner — "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."

In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.

.
	"Our Hope is the Personal PRE-MILLENNIAL RETURN of the   Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."
	— August 1891, age 58

Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given — see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.

.

We feel safe in concluding, then,

that of the three views we began with,

Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a

Literal Return of Jesus Christ

BEFORE

a Literal Millennium on the Earth.

———————————————————————————

.

Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student

Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement

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From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.

Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below —

Spurgeon (age 43) — There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...

Spurgeon (age 49) — Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.

Spurgeon (age 50) — When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be — we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation — for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God — and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Spurgeon (age 52) — His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel  37:1-10] — Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say — "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.

The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us — "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.

We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb — the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] — (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests — distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day — and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel — however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold — I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit — but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called — Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now — "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He — that same Jesus — who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

[the_doc]

Let’s go ahead and take a look at 2 Peter 3:

It will take several posts for me to cover your #2158. This is my first one.

Following is the first part of your exposition, along with my comments.

”[1] This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: [2] That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: [3] Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, [4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”

Peter introduces us to the problem. Some people don’t believe Jesus is coming again, and their false teaching was causing trouble for the people. Peter wrote this in order to comfort those who may have been led astray into believing that Jesus wasn’t really coming back.

I agree with you. I believe what you said is patently obvious from the text.

I also think that your patently obvious observation is important in several respects—not the least of which is the fact that we have folks within the professing Church in our own day who either implicitly or explicitly deny that the Lord is coming back.

For example, we have full preterists plaguing the professing Church, and many if not most of them explicitly maintain that the Lord is not coming back. Of course, they say that He returned right after Peter wrote. But they still belong in the category of scoffers. They are not precisely THE scoffers whom Peter mentions, but there is a spiritual congruity between Peter’s scoffers and the full-preterist scoffers.

That brings me to a point which is not quite so obvious in the text, but which I believe is spiritually riveting for anyone who looks at the text in an applicationally thoughtful way. I am referring here to the fact that Peter’s scoffers are characterized as “walking after their own lusts.” In the final analysis, they are not interested in the Lord Jesus.

This really is the point of Peter's reference to the scoffers as those who are "walking after their own lusts." But this is the underlying reason why some professing Christians are candidates for the horrible, Scripture-twisting error of full-preterism!

In other words, we need to remember, at the very least, that there are unregenerate people who convince themselves that they are Christians. The Bible has a LOT to say about these antichrists. (They may think that they are walking after God, but they are walking after their own lusts after all.)

The point I want to make here is that some of these "near-miss pseudo-Christians" become overt scoffers along with all the rest of the worldlings who harrass Christians. And as we have seen on FR, the full-preterists are very, very aggressive at harrassing those of us who are fully orthodox. They incessantly mock us for believing the Lord will return for us in particular.

(Actually, the text does not really say that the scoffers are former professing Christians, much less present professing "Christians." But it doesn't have to say this. My application of what Peter does say is still manifestly correct. [As a matter of fact, the fact that Peter doesn't give us any details about the scoffers establishes the validity of a rather broad warning by way of application.])

Well, I say that the scoffers in our own era were "before of old ordained to this condemnation" (Jude 4). Because they are unregenerate, they don't believe the gospel--even if they doggedly profess to believe it. (Notice that this is not precisely the same as to saying that they are unregenerate because they don’t believe the gospel.)

The truth is, people believe only what they want to believe. And the unregenerate person, who ONLY walks after his own lusts, is necessarily, self-deceptively disinterested in the Lord Who is the Truth. (If he were regenerate, he would want to embrace the Truth--and would do so, of course!) That means that the unregenerate person, even if he thinks he is born again, is necessarily, self-deceptively disinterested in the Truth concerning the Lord’s anticipated return.

(Ah, but notice again that he may THINK he is interested.)

More later.

[the_doc]

Let’s continue the point I started in my previous post. As lurkers will notice, it was an elaboration on the idea which you had posted as follows:

Peter introduces us to the problem. Some people don’t believe Jesus is coming again, and their false teaching was causing trouble for the people. Peter wrote this in order to comfort those who may have been led astray into believing that Jesus wasn’t really coming back.

As I said in my previous post, there is a spiritual congruity between Peter’s scoffers and anyone in our own day who would dare to assert that the Lord is not coming back. I argued that any full-preterist who specifically dares to affirm in our day that the Lord is not coming back is a scoffing apostate. (And I frankly don’t care how long he may have maintained a more orthodox profession of faith. Such things mean nothing, because mere professions mean nothing.)

I ultimately based my position on the fact that the Incarnate Person of God in Christ is supremely precious to any human soul who walks in the Spirit of Christ. A truly, experientially redeemed sinner will want to see Him as He is, i.e., to behold Him with his own eyes. A sovereignly elected and truly born-again believer will not utterly and finally forsake the orthodox understanding of the Scriptures concerning the fact that the Lord will return.

As I said in my earlier post, people believe what they want to believe. And the sinner who does not believe that the Lord is coming back for us manifestly doesn’t want to have anything to do with the Incarnate Christ! He doesn’t want Him to return in the flesh.

If this position on my part seems too severe, too scathing as a denunciation of full-preterists, consider this: IF a full-preterist is discovered in the membership of a discerning local church, he WILL be confronted over his denial of the Lord's future, Bodily return. And if he does not very quickly recant, he WILL be excommunicated by that discerning local church.

The sad truth is that he has to be excommunicated. He is just a weird, modern-day version of Hymenaeus and Philetus. His doctrine is gangrenous in the body of Christ. He is a member which must be cut off.

And having been cut off in formal excommunication by a discerning local church, he is damned if he never repents and applies to the congregation for restoration in orthodoxy. (Excommunication by the likes of the Pope means nothing. But excommunication by a discerning Protestant fellowship faithfully upholding the Truth of Scripture is deadly serious.)

In short, the excommunication scenario I outlined above amounts to a rather important spiritual thought-experiment. It shows that we cannot tolerate full-preterist scoffers. We cannot call them brethren if they deny the Hope of the Church and the future, literal Bodily return of Christ for His Church.

***

The above comments were just intended to take a very, very clear stand against full-preterism. It really is one of the things which the apostle Peter would want us to do.

More later.

[the_doc]

One of the reasons why I spent two posts denouncing full-preterism is because I want to go on record that amills don’t coddle full-preterists. We regard them as scoffers. The fact that there is a kind of “partial preterism” inherent in amillennialism doesn’t even being to suggest that amills are closer to full-preterism than premills are.

(I have known only two professing Christians who have jumped into full-preterism. And they were never dogmatic amills as I am. As best as I can tell, they were actually leaning toward premillennialism before they became full-preterists.)

***

The second reason why I used the full-preterists to illustrate the seriousness of Peter’s warning is that the overall position of the full-preterists actually illustrates something else about Peter’s situation—something else which you did not bother to cover very well in your #2158.

I am referring to the fact that many people in the apostolic period believed that the Lord had promised to return soon. The full-preterists invariably key on this. It’s actually one of their main arguments.

In his 600-page book The Parousia, James Stuart Russell spends literally hundreds of pages arguing from text after text after text that this idea of soonness is so conspicuous in the Scriptures that God surely fulfilled His promise in 70 A.D. He said that God is a liar if He didn’t come back and fulfill all of His promises in 70 A.D.

The problem with this argument is that Peter immediately and completely crushes it. Peter says, in effect, that God’s idea of soon is not the same thing as man’s idea of soon (v.8).

So, Russell was a blaspheming idiot who wasted hundreds of pages.

[the_doc]

I think I'll let you digest my last three posts before we go on. Let me know when you're ready.

Things will get more interesting shortly, I believe.

[ksen]

Thanks doc. You raise some very interesting, and I would say spot on, points. I'm sure you will get some sort of reaction when the Preterists check in sometime tonight or tomorrow.

I look forward to the rest of your comments over my little exposition of II Peter 3. ;^)

[JesseShurun]

What do you think of this?

An Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of Yahweh; even to the tenth generation shall none belonging to them enter into the assembly of Yahweh forever

Interesting isn't it in the light of Ruth and David's lineage.

[JesseShurun]

So x, if your argument re Jesus were true, that Jewishness comes thru the mother, what are you going to say in David's case? He's cursed beyond Jesus even, having a Moabite mother. Matthew did not post that geneology lightly and his theology is addressed to the Jews of that day. Guess he had them by the short hairs.

[RnMomof7]

The church ordains fulll preterists.They Pastor churches...

You are a partial preterist.. distinguish the difference

[JesseShurun]

If as you say, Scripture cannot be broken, (but I say, God has His own reasons for doing what He does and maybe he has not confided in us, or written it in the revealed Torah, or maybe He has revealed it in the person of Christ after all) please explain King David in light of this scripture from the OT:

An Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of Yahweh; even to the tenth generation shall none belonging to them enter into the assembly of Yahweh forever.

He has repeated this commandment in books other than Deuteronomy, so He must have meant it. So what are we to make of it all I wonder?

[the_doc]

The "Church" ordains homosexuals and female elders, too.

The partial preterist believes that some promises were given to and fulfilled for people in the Bible.

The full preterist believes that there are no important promises left for us. They are manifestly damned in that--since they don't really believe anything.

[RnMomof7]

Do they see an end to this earth? Or is it an ongoing thing forever and ever?

I think I understand they believe the second coming is past...but does that then eliminate a final judgement?

[the_doc]

I've always regarded that as one of the cutest pictures of justification in the entire Bible.

[xzins]

I didn't make any argument regarding lineage coming through the mother. I did say that ortho/hasid Jews are insisting on Jewish lineage coming through the mother. I mentioned that a friend (a rabbi) was incensed over this modern development. I even speculated what it would mean regarding Mary's lineage being given in addition to Joseph's lineage being given.

Just one of those things that makes you go, hmmmmmmm.

Now, David had a Moabitess in his lineage no matter how you cut it. No one I heard of on the Jewish side is ready to expel David from his place in history.

It's funny.....make an infraction old enough and it becomes a blessed event. LOL. (BTW, check out the "Tell a friend how to be saved" thread.)

[the_doc]

The ones I have encountered believe the Judgment Day happened in 70 A.D.

The amill has essentially NOTHING in coming with these guys.

[the_doc]

I said "The amill has essentially NOTHING in coming with these guys," but I meant to say "The amill has essentially NOTHING in COMMON with these guys."


.

[JesseShurun]

Yes, that is precisely my point. The Jews have decided to just say that "the Lord turned a curse into a blessing." So when you hear the same sort of argument used against Jesus, just remind them of their own little problem.

Believing in God is a spiritual condition. Being a Christian is a spiritual condition. Being Jewish is a spiritual condition. You don't catch it from your mother or your father, only from God.

[JesseShurun]

Very good answer. The Lord found "a man after His own heart" from among the flock, and his ancestors, even the cursed ones, did not matter.

[the_doc]

Agreed. But I would point out the curse DID matter. Ammonites and Moabites had to become Jews by proselytism. They had to be brought to the place where they renounced their former citizenship.

That was the only way around the curse--which is another typologically wonderful testimony to the indispensable importance of regeneration-unto-conversion!

[JesseShurun]

Not exactly correct. The women could convert, the men never. It looks like the Lord has laid a parallel between David and Jesus that no man, writing uninspired text, would ever have thought of.

[JesseShurun]

My info on the conversion is from the Stone Edition Tanach, Book of Ruth.