Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[xzins]

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CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?

— WELL, NO LONGER!  HERE IS...

. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE
MILLENNIUM
	Annotated Summary by
	MARK A. MCNEIL

"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."

[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]

INTRODUCTION

There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology — regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.

It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.

PREMILLENNIALISM

The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.

Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.

AMILLENNIALISM

The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening.  It is, to them, a Present Reality.

POSTMILLENNIALISM

The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.

This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.

Spurgeon's VIEW  

With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* — especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.

*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial" — yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!

Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...

"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]

Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming.  Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.

"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]

[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner — "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."

In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.

.
	"Our Hope is the Personal PRE-MILLENNIAL RETURN of the   Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."
	— August 1891, age 58

Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given — see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.

.

We feel safe in concluding, then,

that of the three views we began with,

Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a

Literal Return of Jesus Christ

BEFORE

a Literal Millennium on the Earth.

———————————————————————————

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Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student

Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement

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From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.

Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below —

Spurgeon (age 43) — There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...

Spurgeon (age 49) — Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.

Spurgeon (age 50) — When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be — we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation — for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God — and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Spurgeon (age 52) — His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel  37:1-10] — Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say — "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.

The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us — "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.

We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb — the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] — (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests — distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day — and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel — however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold — I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit — but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called — Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now — "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He — that same Jesus — who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

[RnMomof7]

Cool gif. Know where the image is from?

It was taken in my back yard:>)

[RnMomof7]

I'm not saying that OP's model is completely wrong but just not complete. Both lineages are listed and both are important and both need to be factored in.

Agreed...God did something only He can do ..He has provided an answer for every argument against the Kingship of Jesus ..This is not about amil or premil..this is about the hand of God IMHO

[Revelation 911]

thank you Nate - that was very polite of you - Is there any concern we can pray about?

[The Grammarian]

Hehe, so you live in Solamnia, do you? It's an image from the cover of a Dragonlance novel called Dragons of Winter Night.

[RnMomof7]

LOL

[Jean Chauvin]

"Hi, Jean. Welcome back."

Thank-you, but I haven't gone anywhere. I just haven't posted in a while. I have been lurking a bit though.

"You know the response is on earth because the scene is on earth and because Rev 5: 10 says "reign on earth." "

What is to prevent me from concluding that Rev 5:10 is ~actually~ speaking the reinging mentioned in Rev 22:5?

I'm on ~much~ better exegetical footing to conclude that Rev 5:10 is a refernce to the New Heavens and the New Earth because Rev 22:5 ~is~ specifically and explicitly speaking of the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Since Rev 20:4 ~NEVER~ specifically or explicitly references the reigning to Earth, you are on rather shaky ground to insist that this is so!

"The scene is on earth because the angel came down "out of heaven," "

NO! Rev 20 simply says that an angel came down "out of heaven". There is no need to ~assume~ or ~presume~ or ~conclude~ he came down out of heaven...to earth. Did not Satan appear before the throne of God in Heaven in the story of Job? This would lead me to conclude that Satan's existance is not ~bound~ to and only to Earth. Thus, there is no ~need~ to conclude the angel is coming to earth.

Furthermore, even if we assume (as you so love to do) that the angel, indeed, does come out of heaven to earth, there is no ~need~ to assume, presume or conclude that the scene remains there.

The object of Rev 20:4 is what John saw. He saw, at least in part, dead people. Dead people are no longer on earth (Luke 23:43). Looks our scene is back in Heaven (*grin*)! Therefore, since these dead people are no longer on earth, but in heaven, it is on rather shakey ground that you assume, presume or conclude that the reigning of Rev 20:4 is on Earth.

Now, if you were to conclude that the Reignign of Rev 20:6 is on Earth (specifically the New Earth), I would agree, but according to John's vision and basic natural reading, the Reigning of Rev 20:6 is distinct from the Reigning of Rev 20:4 and has yet to happen. It will happen -in 22:5! -on the New Earth!

"Satan is prevented from deceiving those who live on the earth"

But, we know from Dispy/Pre-Mill authors that this can be ("obvious" to them) that this is not a 'PHYSICAL' binding since Spiritual Creatures can not be physically bound.

Furthermore, 'binding' in the N.T. does ~not~ NECESSARILY constrict the spacial coordinates of the individual(s) being bound (Luke 13, Rev 9).

Thus there is no reason to NECESSARILY conclude that the bining of Satan limit's his spacial and 'geographical' movements and travels to the earth alone.

Yes, the 'nations (gentiles) will no longer be decieved' and they are on the earth, but as I have already shown, subsequent to the nations being deceived, John sees dead people. And since dead people most definately are ~not~ on earth, there is no reason to assume, presume or NECESSARILY conclude that the reigning of these saints takes place on earth.

", he is released back to deceive those on the earth. "

Yes, Rev 20:7-15 takes place on earth. It ~specifically~ and ~explicitly~ says so. But Rev 20:4 does not ~specifically~ and ~explicitly~ say so. Rev 20:7-15 is quite obviously a reference to the Second Coming of Christ in which he will raise all the dead (the 2nd Resurrection; Daniel 12:2; John 5:28,29; 1 Cor 15:51,52; 1 Thess 4:16) and his subsequent and co-incident Judgment and the Destruction of the old heavens and earth (2 Peter 3).

"All of these mean the reign is on earth."

NO! As I have already shown that ~NOTHING~ you have mentioned REQUIRES (your "mean") us to conclude that the Reigning of Rev 20:4 is on the earth! In fact, 2 Peter 3 prevents us from this conclusion. Since there is no explicit or specific mention of this temporary earthly kingdom in Rev 20, 2 Peter 3 (which is abundantly explicit and clear, despite your tortured renderings, LOL) ~REQUIRES~ us to conlcude that there is no temporary earthly kingdom which happens after Christ's 2nd Coming and before He institutes the New Heaven and the New Earth!

Jean

[RnMomof7]

I agree the language in Revelation is arbitrary..what about the prophetic OT and other NT work..like Thessalonians

[Jean Chauvin]

"I agree the language in Revelation is arbitrary.."

As I've said before, I think the Greek of Rev 20 ~specifically~ rules out Pre-Millennialism! People who are physically alive do not experience resurrection from the dead (1 Cor 15:51,52). But!...People who are physically alive ~do~ get spirtually resurrected (John 5:24,25; John 11:25,26).

"what about the prophetic OT "

Daniel 12:2 prophecies that the Dead -both saved and damned- being resurrected coincidentally! This flatly contradicts Pre-Millennialism which has the beliving dead raised before the Millennium and the unbelieving dead raised 1000 years later.

"and other NT work..like Thessalonians "

There is nothing Pre-Millennial in Thess. And...at the risk of beating a dead horse...John 5:28,29 and 2 Peter 3 (I've known ~so~ many former Pre-Mill's who couldn't square 2 Peter 3 and Pre-Millennialsim -and they knew it all along- and have since abandoned Pre-Millennialism) flatly contradict Pre-Millennialism -hence xzins rather tourtured renderings of both passages!

Jean

[xzins]

Requires.

Fair choice of words.

I choose earth, then, because of the gathered evidence cited, because 5:10 specifically says "earth", AND because a plain reading of 20:4 leads to that conclusion.

We haven't done the Israel/Church thing yet and particularly the extent of the Promised Land/Davidic Kingdom.

But, your "requires" is a fair choice of words.

[xzins]

There is nothing Pre-Millennial in Thess. And...at the risk of beating a dead horse...John 5:28,29 and 2 Peter 3 (I've known ~so~ many former Pre-Mill's who couldn't square 2 Peter 3 and Pre-Millennialsim -and they knew it all along- and have since abandoned Pre-Millennialism) flatly contradict Pre-Millennialism -hence xzins rather tourtured renderings of both passages!

Rev 20:4-5 demonstrates 2 resurrections. (Happy he who has part in 1st resurrection....rest of the dead didn't live until....ERGO, 2 resurrections.) It is difficult to ignore these things and NOT interpret John 5 and 2 Pe 3 in light of their time frames. Especially since 1000 years is SPECIFICALLY mentioned FIVE TIMES in a mere 7 verses.

[xzins]

the prophetic OT

Here's a fascinating prophesy, Rn. Thought you'd enjoy it. One of the most jolting chapters in Jeremiah, chapter 33. The righteous branch of David reveals this as Messianic and not of the Babylonian return. Verse 15 is translated by nasb as "on the EARTH."

Jeremiah 33 1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah the second time, while he was yet shut up in the court of the prison, saying, 2 Thus saith the LORD the maker thereof, the LORD that formed it, to establish it; the LORD is his name; 3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not. 4 For thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning the houses of this city, and concerning the houses of the kings of Judah, which are thrown down by the mounts, and by the sword; 5 They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city. 6 Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth. 7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first. 8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me. 9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it. 10 Thus saith the LORD; Again there shall be heard in this place, which ye say shall be desolate without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man, and without inhabitant, and without beast, 11 The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD. 12 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Again in this place, which is desolate without man and without beast, and in all the cities thereof, shall be an habitation of shepherds causing their flocks to lie down. 13 In the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the vale, and in the cities of the south, and in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, shall the flocks pass again under the hands of him that telleth them, saith the LORD. 14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. 19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, 20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. 23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. 25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

[Revelation 911]

cant find the site now - rats!! - had plenty of same - will search some more

[fortheDeclaration]

Rev 20:4-5 demonstrates 2 resurrections. (Happy he who has part in 1st resurrection....rest of the dead didn't live until....ERGO, 2 resurrections.) It is difficult to ignore these things and NOT interpret John 5 and 2 Pe 3 in light of their time frames. Especially since 1000 years is SPECIFICALLY mentioned FIVE TIMES in a mere 7 verses.

What is the problem with 2Pet.3 or John 5:28-29?

John doesn't tell when the good come forth and when the evil come forth.

It is incomplete passage and the entire thought is completed in Rev.20.(the saved first, then after a thousand years the damned)

You could make a case for a works system of salvation with that type of interpretation.

[Jean Chauvin]

"I choose earth, then, because of the gathered evidence cited, because 5:10 specifically says "earth", AND because a plain reading of 20:4 leads to that conclusion. "

You have offered absolutely NO evidence! NONE! Only CONJECTURE! The plain reading of 20:4 in absolutely positively NO WAY(!) leads us to that conclusion. 5:10 is speaking of 22:5. I have much more ground to claim that than you do to claim 5:10 refers to 20:4! Only your eisegetical PRESUMPTIONS lead you to this conclusion!

"We haven't done the Israel/Church thing yet and particularly the extent of the Promised Land/Davidic Kingdom."

The separation of Israel/Church is completely irrelevant to the issue of PreMillennialism! The PreMillennialists of the early church were FAR from Dispensational! Furthermore, I take Paul at his word in Gal 3:28 and Eph 1-4! There ~IS~ no more Greek and Jew. The distinction in the eyes of God ceases to exist! This is why this Dispensationalism CRAP hasn't occurred to the Church for the first 1800 years!

Jean

[Jean Chauvin]

"Rev 20:4-5 demonstrates 2 resurrections. (Happy he who has part in 1st resurrection....rest of the dead didn't live until....ERGO, 2 resurrections.)"

Rev 4 speaks of TWO Groups of People. John sees 'souls of the beheaded' and John sees those "had not worshipped the beast". Therefore, at least ~some~ of these people are living physically in their bodies rather than living with the Lord. Remember, Rev 20 says ONLY!!!!! that these folks "live" and "reign" with Jesus. There is no "again" ~written~ or ~understood~ associated with 'live'. Only your obstinant PRESUMPTIONS require you to insist that 'again' is there. It simply says "lived". That ~is~ the simple reading of Rev 20!

The 'first resurrection' ~never~ mentions a bodily resurrection. Furthermore, all the people John sees are said to take part in the First Resurrection. Since ~some~ of these folks John sees are alive in the body, there is reason to REQUIRE the interpretation of the First Resurrection as a spiritual resurrection. People who are alive in the body do not get resurrected from the dead (1 Cor 15:51,52), BUT people who are spiritually dead are indeed resurrected spiritually (John 5:24,25; John 11:25,26; Eph 2:4,5)

In fact, John 11:25,26 (written by the very same author, mind you) uses the very same Greek words that Rev 20:4,5 does. "zao" and "anastasis" are used in both passages and John 11:25,26 is speaking of Spiritual regeneration -not physical bodily resurrection!

"It is difficult to ignore these things and NOT interpret John 5 and 2 Pe 3 in light of their time frames."

John 5 and 2 Peter 3 are abundantly clear and eliminate the possibility of a PreMillennial Kingdom. Your tortured readings simply BASTARDIZE the clear teaching of Scripture. You ought to be ashamed of yourself!!!!

"Especially since 1000 years is SPECIFICALLY mentioned FIVE TIMES in a mere 7 verses."

Remember, according to the plain reading of John's vision, the 1000 years mentioned in verse 6 have yet to happen. They are distinct and differentiated from the '1000 years' mentioned in verse 4. Thus, the plain reading of Rev 20:4-6 REQUIRES us to determine that PreMillennialism is false doctrine!

Jean

[CCWoody]

Rev 20:4-5 demonstrates 2 resurrections. (Happy he who has part in 1st resurrection....rest of the dead didn't live until....ERGO, 2 resurrections.) It is difficult to ignore these things and NOT interpret John 5 and 2 Pe 3 in light of their time frames. Especially since 1000 years is SPECIFICALLY mentioned FIVE TIMES in a mere 7 verses.

Thank you for admiting that PreMillennialism must interpret John 5 and all of the gospel dealing with the second coming of Christ in light of a "mere 7 verses" of the Bible.

1. Let it never be said again that we Amills have our favorite "proof texts". We, at least take the entire gospel to our intrepretation of Revelation.
2. Let it never be said that we Amills "spiritualize" everything. At least we don't believe that the gospel is a closed "book" that needed to wait for a special Revelation to open it.

[xzins]

You have offered absolutely NO evidence! NONE! Only CONJECTURE!

How in the world can you say that citing verses specifically saying there are 2 resurrections is conjecture? How can you say that citing a passage that 5 times uses "1000 years" in 7 verses is conjecture? It's not conjecture; it's simply reading what's there. I'm not the one involved in interpreting "this way and that way" at these points; I'm the one who's simply reading it. Anyone can Go read Rev 20 and John 5, and they'll agree with ftd that John 5 doesn't tell when the good come forth and when the evil come forth. It is an incomplete passage and the entire thought is completed in Rev.20.(the saved first, then after a thousand years the damned) . Further revelation clarifies the meaning of John 5.

We both know, as well, that Paul's Romans 9-11 quotes about Jews fully balances any "ye are all one" verses. There are clearly threee groups that are distinct. There are unbelieving Jews. There are believing Jews. There are believing Gentiles. The believing Jews and Gentiles combine in the church. However, Rom 11:25 - I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this MYSTERY, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a PARTIAL hardening has happened to Israel UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; AND THUS ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED;....

[maestro]

Your#2437)..........EXCELLENT POST!..........thank you!

[xzins]

You're welcome. Have a nice day. :>)

[RnMomof7]

Jean I believe scripture interprets scripture..a word search of the word resurrection shows it speaks of bodiely resurrection consistantly..how can you just change it to a spiritul meaning ?