Posted on 09/12/2002 7:19:20 AM PDT by xzins
It was taken in my back yard:>)
Agreed...God did something only He can do ..He has provided an answer for every argument against the Kingship of Jesus ..This is not about amil or premil..this is about the hand of God IMHO
Thank-you, but I haven't gone anywhere. I just haven't posted in a while. I have been lurking a bit though.
"You know the response is on earth because the scene is on earth and because Rev 5: 10 says "reign on earth." "
What is to prevent me from concluding that Rev 5:10 is ~actually~ speaking the reinging mentioned in Rev 22:5?
I'm on ~much~ better exegetical footing to conclude that Rev 5:10 is a refernce to the New Heavens and the New Earth because Rev 22:5 ~is~ specifically and explicitly speaking of the New Heavens and the New Earth.
Since Rev 20:4 ~NEVER~ specifically or explicitly references the reigning to Earth, you are on rather shaky ground to insist that this is so!
"The scene is on earth because the angel came down "out of heaven," "
NO! Rev 20 simply says that an angel came down "out of heaven". There is no need to ~assume~ or ~presume~ or ~conclude~ he came down out of heaven...to earth. Did not Satan appear before the throne of God in Heaven in the story of Job? This would lead me to conclude that Satan's existance is not ~bound~ to and only to Earth. Thus, there is no ~need~ to conclude the angel is coming to earth.
Furthermore, even if we assume (as you so love to do) that the angel, indeed, does come out of heaven to earth, there is no ~need~ to assume, presume or conclude that the scene remains there.
The object of Rev 20:4 is what John saw. He saw, at least in part, dead people. Dead people are no longer on earth (Luke 23:43). Looks our scene is back in Heaven (*grin*)! Therefore, since these dead people are no longer on earth, but in heaven, it is on rather shakey ground that you assume, presume or conclude that the reigning of Rev 20:4 is on Earth.
Now, if you were to conclude that the Reignign of Rev 20:6 is on Earth (specifically the New Earth), I would agree, but according to John's vision and basic natural reading, the Reigning of Rev 20:6 is distinct from the Reigning of Rev 20:4 and has yet to happen. It will happen -in 22:5! -on the New Earth!
"Satan is prevented from deceiving those who live on the earth"
But, we know from Dispy/Pre-Mill authors that this can be ("obvious" to them) that this is not a 'PHYSICAL' binding since Spiritual Creatures can not be physically bound.
Furthermore, 'binding' in the N.T. does ~not~ NECESSARILY constrict the spacial coordinates of the individual(s) being bound (Luke 13, Rev 9).
Thus there is no reason to NECESSARILY conclude that the bining of Satan limit's his spacial and 'geographical' movements and travels to the earth alone.
Yes, the 'nations (gentiles) will no longer be decieved' and they are on the earth, but as I have already shown, subsequent to the nations being deceived, John sees dead people. And since dead people most definately are ~not~ on earth, there is no reason to assume, presume or NECESSARILY conclude that the reigning of these saints takes place on earth.
", he is released back to deceive those on the earth. "
Yes, Rev 20:7-15 takes place on earth. It ~specifically~ and ~explicitly~ says so. But Rev 20:4 does not ~specifically~ and ~explicitly~ say so. Rev 20:7-15 is quite obviously a reference to the Second Coming of Christ in which he will raise all the dead (the 2nd Resurrection; Daniel 12:2; John 5:28,29; 1 Cor 15:51,52; 1 Thess 4:16) and his subsequent and co-incident Judgment and the Destruction of the old heavens and earth (2 Peter 3).
"All of these mean the reign is on earth."
NO! As I have already shown that ~NOTHING~ you have mentioned REQUIRES (your "mean") us to conclude that the Reigning of Rev 20:4 is on the earth! In fact, 2 Peter 3 prevents us from this conclusion. Since there is no explicit or specific mention of this temporary earthly kingdom in Rev 20, 2 Peter 3 (which is abundantly explicit and clear, despite your tortured renderings, LOL) ~REQUIRES~ us to conlcude that there is no temporary earthly kingdom which happens after Christ's 2nd Coming and before He institutes the New Heaven and the New Earth!
Jean
As I've said before, I think the Greek of Rev 20 ~specifically~ rules out Pre-Millennialism! People who are physically alive do not experience resurrection from the dead (1 Cor 15:51,52). But!...People who are physically alive ~do~ get spirtually resurrected (John 5:24,25; John 11:25,26).
"what about the prophetic OT "
Daniel 12:2 prophecies that the Dead -both saved and damned- being resurrected coincidentally! This flatly contradicts Pre-Millennialism which has the beliving dead raised before the Millennium and the unbelieving dead raised 1000 years later.
"and other NT work..like Thessalonians "
There is nothing Pre-Millennial in Thess. And...at the risk of beating a dead horse...John 5:28,29 and 2 Peter 3 (I've known ~so~ many former Pre-Mill's who couldn't square 2 Peter 3 and Pre-Millennialsim -and they knew it all along- and have since abandoned Pre-Millennialism) flatly contradict Pre-Millennialism -hence xzins rather tourtured renderings of both passages!
Jean
Fair choice of words.
I choose earth, then, because of the gathered evidence cited, because 5:10 specifically says "earth", AND because a plain reading of 20:4 leads to that conclusion.
We haven't done the Israel/Church thing yet and particularly the extent of the Promised Land/Davidic Kingdom.
But, your "requires" is a fair choice of words.
Rev 20:4-5 demonstrates 2 resurrections. (Happy he who has part in 1st resurrection....rest of the dead didn't live until....ERGO, 2 resurrections.) It is difficult to ignore these things and NOT interpret John 5 and 2 Pe 3 in light of their time frames. Especially since 1000 years is SPECIFICALLY mentioned FIVE TIMES in a mere 7 verses.
Here's a fascinating prophesy, Rn. Thought you'd enjoy it. One of the most jolting chapters in Jeremiah, chapter 33. The righteous branch of David reveals this as Messianic and not of the Babylonian return. Verse 15 is translated by nasb as "on the EARTH."
Jeremiah 33 1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah the second time, while he was yet shut up in the court of the prison, saying, 2 Thus saith the LORD the maker thereof, the LORD that formed it, to establish it; the LORD is his name; 3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not. 4 For thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning the houses of this city, and concerning the houses of the kings of Judah, which are thrown down by the mounts, and by the sword; 5 They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city. 6 Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth. 7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first. 8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me. 9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it. 10 Thus saith the LORD; Again there shall be heard in this place, which ye say shall be desolate without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man, and without inhabitant, and without beast, 11 The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD. 12 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Again in this place, which is desolate without man and without beast, and in all the cities thereof, shall be an habitation of shepherds causing their flocks to lie down. 13 In the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the vale, and in the cities of the south, and in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, shall the flocks pass again under the hands of him that telleth them, saith the LORD. 14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. 15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. 17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. 19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, 20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. 23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. 25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
What is the problem with 2Pet.3 or John 5:28-29?
John doesn't tell when the good come forth and when the evil come forth.
It is incomplete passage and the entire thought is completed in Rev.20.(the saved first, then after a thousand years the damned)
You could make a case for a works system of salvation with that type of interpretation.
You have offered absolutely NO evidence! NONE! Only CONJECTURE! The plain reading of 20:4 in absolutely positively NO WAY(!) leads us to that conclusion. 5:10 is speaking of 22:5. I have much more ground to claim that than you do to claim 5:10 refers to 20:4! Only your eisegetical PRESUMPTIONS lead you to this conclusion!
"We haven't done the Israel/Church thing yet and particularly the extent of the Promised Land/Davidic Kingdom."
The separation of Israel/Church is completely irrelevant to the issue of PreMillennialism! The PreMillennialists of the early church were FAR from Dispensational! Furthermore, I take Paul at his word in Gal 3:28 and Eph 1-4! There ~IS~ no more Greek and Jew. The distinction in the eyes of God ceases to exist! This is why this Dispensationalism CRAP hasn't occurred to the Church for the first 1800 years!
Jean
Rev 4 speaks of TWO Groups of People. John sees 'souls of the beheaded' and John sees those "had not worshipped the beast". Therefore, at least ~some~ of these people are living physically in their bodies rather than living with the Lord. Remember, Rev 20 says ONLY!!!!! that these folks "live" and "reign" with Jesus. There is no "again" ~written~ or ~understood~ associated with 'live'. Only your obstinant PRESUMPTIONS require you to insist that 'again' is there. It simply says "lived". That ~is~ the simple reading of Rev 20!
The 'first resurrection' ~never~ mentions a bodily resurrection. Furthermore, all the people John sees are said to take part in the First Resurrection. Since ~some~ of these folks John sees are alive in the body, there is reason to REQUIRE the interpretation of the First Resurrection as a spiritual resurrection. People who are alive in the body do not get resurrected from the dead (1 Cor 15:51,52), BUT people who are spiritually dead are indeed resurrected spiritually (John 5:24,25; John 11:25,26; Eph 2:4,5)
In fact, John 11:25,26 (written by the very same author, mind you) uses the very same Greek words that Rev 20:4,5 does. "zao" and "anastasis" are used in both passages and John 11:25,26 is speaking of Spiritual regeneration -not physical bodily resurrection!
"It is difficult to ignore these things and NOT interpret John 5 and 2 Pe 3 in light of their time frames."
John 5 and 2 Peter 3 are abundantly clear and eliminate the possibility of a PreMillennial Kingdom. Your tortured readings simply BASTARDIZE the clear teaching of Scripture. You ought to be ashamed of yourself!!!!
"Especially since 1000 years is SPECIFICALLY mentioned FIVE TIMES in a mere 7 verses."
Remember, according to the plain reading of John's vision, the 1000 years mentioned in verse 6 have yet to happen. They are distinct and differentiated from the '1000 years' mentioned in verse 4. Thus, the plain reading of Rev 20:4-6 REQUIRES us to determine that PreMillennialism is false doctrine!
Jean
How in the world can you say that citing verses specifically saying there are 2 resurrections is conjecture? How can you say that citing a passage that 5 times uses "1000 years" in 7 verses is conjecture? It's not conjecture; it's simply reading what's there. I'm not the one involved in interpreting "this way and that way" at these points; I'm the one who's simply reading it. Anyone can Go read Rev 20 and John 5, and they'll agree with ftd that John 5 doesn't tell when the good come forth and when the evil come forth. It is an incomplete passage and the entire thought is completed in Rev.20.(the saved first, then after a thousand years the damned) . Further revelation clarifies the meaning of John 5.
We both know, as well, that Paul's Romans 9-11 quotes about Jews fully balances any "ye are all one" verses. There are clearly threee groups that are distinct. There are unbelieving Jews. There are believing Jews. There are believing Gentiles. The believing Jews and Gentiles combine in the church. However, Rom 11:25 - I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this MYSTERY, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a PARTIAL hardening has happened to Israel UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; AND THUS ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED;....
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