What is predestination?

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/SPROUL13.HTM ^ | 9/11/02 | R. C. Sproul

[P-Marlowe]

I will answer all your questions but only after you answer this one. You have criticized the LDS for dodging tough questions. So answer this one and please start your answer with either a yes or a no:

Is it God's "will" that man sins?

Hey steve, you want to take a stab at that one?

[drstevej]

***Is it God's "will" that man sins?***

No sin was more heinous than the crucifixion of His Son.

Ac 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

- DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God"

- HUMAN ACCOUNTABILITY "ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

Define "will" and your question will be clearer.

[P-Marlowe]

Define "will" and your question will be clearer.

You answer the question and then feel free to define the term. That seems to be the problem. After two years on these threads I still have no real idea of what the Calvinist means when he talks about the "will" of God.

It seems to me that some Calvinists think that nobody can tie their shoes without it being the will of God that he tie his shoe. Others talk about permissive will, which allows man free will determination as to his entire life, but being denied free will when it comes to salvation.

So you answer the question and then define the terms as you understand them. But start with a yes or a no.

[Catholicguy]

<> To me, your response indicates you believe God indeed does create folks predetermined for Hell. Is that correct? <>

[drstevej]

Yes, in the same sense as Acts 2:23 says the crucufixion of Jesus was according to the determinate counsel of God.

Yes, in the sense of Eph. 1:11. God worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Yes, in the sense of Gen. 50:10. "ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive."

[P-Marlowe]

I can understand that God can work his purposes despite the fact that we sin against him. But the question really is whether or not it is actually God's will that we sin against him. If God does everything according to the good pleasure of his will, and if, when we sin, we are merely acting in accordance with the good pleasure of his will, then are we not doing god's will by sinning?

This is a sticking point between me and some of the fatalistic Calvinists on these threads. It seems to me that some of them think that every sin we commit is in accordance with his will rather than in opposition to his will. Is not his will reflected in his commandments? And if we violate those commandments are we not acting against his "will?"

Give me some guidance here steve.

[drstevej]

My time is limited, sorry.

***It seems to me that some of them think that every sin we commit is in accordance with his will rather than in opposition to his will.***

I think there are two differing definitions of "will" operative in this sentence. Sin is a violation of the preceptive will of God (His precepts / commands), it is in accordance with His decretive will (His decree).

Again Acts 2:23... God's determinate counsel (decretive will) is set side by side with a human violation of God's preceptive will (the slaughter of an innoccent man on false charges).

[RnMomof7]

I can understand that God can work his purposes despite the fact that we sin against him. But the question really is whether or not it is actually God's will that we sin against him. If God does everything according to the good pleasure of his will, and if, when we sin, we are merely acting in accordance with the good pleasure of his will, then are we not doing god's will by sinning?

God is not the author of sin PM..But he is the creator of the man that will sin...He could make a man in a way he would never sin.

God knows when a hair falls from your head...he made you..He put every preference you have into your makeup..He knows every sin you will choose to commit..He knows that because he made you that way..

Could God have made Adam in such a way that he would not have sinned?

[RnMomof7]

God choses those he will save..do you have a problem with God doing that?

He could have acted justly instead of mercifully and saved none (which is what we all deserve) . Instead He chose to save for himself a rhemnent....

[Catholicguy]

<> To me, your response indicates you believe God indeed does create folks predetermined for Hell. Is that correct? <>

I understand why you flee the consequences of your belief. But, is that or is that not an accurate description of what you believe?

[RnMomof7]

It seems to me that some Calvinists think that nobody can tie their shoes without it being the will of God that he tie his shoe. Others talk about permissive will, which allows man free will determination as to his entire life, but being denied free will when it comes to salvation.

God has given mankind a free will Marlowe.But because of the way He made us and the circumstances of our lives His creative decisions determine our expression of that "free will". Nothing happens without the consent or direction of God..He is in charge. I think the issue hinges on why we will what we will...

I do not know if you have seen this..I wrote it some time ago in an attempt to explain a Calvinist thoughts on free will

I repost it now in case you missed it

Men today worship at the altar of free will and choices

The fact is that all choices are made within a restricted set of circumstances

A man jumping off the empire state building can not exercise free will half way down.

Did you chose your sex? Did your chose your parents? Did you choose your country or city of birth? Did you chose your intelligence?

All of these things were predestined by your creator

He set up for you that parameters of the decisions and choices that will be available to you.

He could have had you born in India to Hindu parents in a low class. You never would have had an opportunity to go to school or to make the life choices you make today. You may never have heard the gospel to be saved.

Acts 17 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

All of our choices are governed by our preferences. Our preferences are part of that same creative process of the Father

Have you read the twin studies?

I read one that blew me away

Two brothers separated at birth. both had the same IQ, Both the same level of education, both loved firefighting (one was a professional and one a volunteer), both married women similar in appearance and both wives were named Jean. Both men had the same number of kids...and both drove red cars

Now these studies are done to show us the effects of genetics.

I know the designer of genetics. And His name is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. He is the great "I AM"

God has designed each of us in such a way that we will have preferences that will lead us to certain choices.

Because of the fall men will never seek God

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In order for man to choose Christ he must have a preference for Christ. But the fall removed that preference. Man is spiritually dead.He can not choose life

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Note here that Jesus says a man cannot SEE the kingdom of God. Man can not desire or choose what he can not see

So God gives those that are His a New heart

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

God then gives us a heart that will desire Him.. A heart that can see Him and choose Him...

Our will was put in bondage in Eden. The will we have is the will of Adam. Only the new birth gives us a truly free will. The desire and the will to choose Christ

I find it so interesting that people resent the idea that God has foreordained our eternity. If our father so loved us to foreordain our present, how much more important is our eternity?

[RnMomof7]

I am not "fleeing" anything..hey have ya ever known me to run away?

I am simply choosing my words to express what I believe

There are two schools of thought on this..one is that God made a positive decision to make certain men for the purpose of destruction...the other is God made men and then chose to save some of them (which is what I believe)

God..for His own purpose chose to save some of His creation and not others..He is the creator ..He has a right to do with His creation as He wills

[P-Marlowe]

Sorry steve, but none of that makes sense. Does God really expect his creation to obey his laws, or is he just kidding?

Simply put, if God's will is reflected in his commandments, such as the commandment to repent, then how could his will be reflected in our failure to repent? Or is it really his will that every man repent?

[RnMomof7]

Did He expect Adam to obey?

[P-Marlowe]

You tell me.

[RnMomof7]

How is it when you ask the question you demand I answer them and when I ask the questions you tell me to answer them:>)))

Did God REALLY expect Adam to keep that first law?Or the Jews (or gentiles) to obey the commandments? Is that why they were given??

[P-Marlowe]

Have you answered post #41 yet? I don't see it. Answer it yes or no and then I will start on your questions. Thanks

[RnMomof7]

I think you know the answer to my question PM and you do not want to deal with them....Steve answered it for me..so I saw no further need to address it
***Is it God's "will" that man sins?***

No sin was more heinous than the crucifixion of His Son.

Ac 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

- DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God"

- HUMAN ACCOUNTABILITY "ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.


NOTHING happens unless it is the will of God

[RnMomof7]

Did God REALLY expect Adam to keep that first law?Or the Jews (or gentiles) to obey the commandments? Is that why they were given??

[drstevej]

***Sorry steve, but none of that makes sense.***

Divine Sovereignty and Human Accountibility side by side in Scripture without explanation and without embarrasment. I don't claim to be able to fully explain. I will ardently affirm both.

***Simply put, if God's will [PRECEPTIVE]is reflected in his commandments, such as the commandment to repent, then how could his will [DECRETIVE] be reflected in our failure to repent?***

Same mixed definition problem, P-M.