Posted on 09/03/2002 12:16:14 PM PDT by Aliska
And reach down to give us a hand now and then.
Yep! ;)
You are in conflict with Scripture. All believers are called to be saints, not all believers are Saints. Can you show me where Scripture states that those in heaven are dead? Are Moses, Elijah and Enoch dead? If so how did Moses and Elijah appear along with Christ to Peter, James and John? What happened to those saints who were resurrected following the death of Jesus? Did they die again and if so where does Scripture tell us that?
Matthew 27:52-53 "And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many."
BTW The communion of saints means the living church
The communion of saints means the Church Triumphant, the Church Militant and the Church Suffering. The communion of saints is the bond of unity of all believers, the committed followers of Christ.
Heaven isn't part of the living Church? Seems you define living as strictly in the corporeal, mortal sense, which contradicts Scripture.
Mark 12:24 "And Jesus answering, saith to them: Do ye not therefore err, because you know not the scriptures, nor the power of God?"
Mark 12:26-27 "And as concerning the dead that they rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him saying: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err."
How could that be since Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all dead when God spoke to Moses?
Are you now answering questions posed to CCWoody?
Respond to the above first.Do you agree or disagree?
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelation 8:3-4) "And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:8). ~~~ Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner.... One might object, saying, "But maybe those weren't prayers to the saints but prayers to God!" This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!
How is this "digging a hole deeper"? I would argue that your choice of language (and your choice of doctrine) is fatally at fault here.
You are using the term "intercessory" as though it implies some sort of mediatorial entreaty by the Dead... even a mediatorial entreaty by the Justified Saints in Heaven (God forbid!! I must allege that Our Saints are grieved by this Roman Abomination, Sock).
Such an interpretation is expressly forbidden to the Church:
- For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Tim 2:5)
- There shall not be found among you any one... that useth divination... or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD. (Deu 18:10-12, excerpt)
- ...and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? (1 Sam 28:8b-9)
Here's an "Amillenial Protestant" HINT for ya, Sock -- Revelations is by far the most "Old Testamental" Book in the New Covenant Scripture, rivalled only by the Johannine Gospel (also written by John) for its hundreds of direct and specific Old Testament References. Revelation is the most "Biblical" Book in the New Testament, bearing in mind that the Palestinian Canon of the Old Covenant Scriptures were the "Bible" which the Author was referencing.
If you do not reference the Old Testament every single time you read a single passage of Revelation, you will always, always, always get your understanding DEAD WRONG. "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."
As concerns the specific passages under our consideration (Revelation 5:8, Revelation 8:3-4), realize that both these passages are a direct, specific, and umambiguous reference to Exodus chapter 30, verses 6 through 10:
And thou shalt put it before the vail that is by the ark of the testimony, before the mercy seat that is over the testimony, where I will meet with thee. And Aaron shall burn thereon sweet incense every morning: when he dresseth the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it. And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations. Ye shall offer no strange incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon. And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
Now, what should this tell you, Sock?
- It is spiritual abomination to imagine that the People of God should "Pray unto Aaron". GOD FORBID!!
- It is spiritual abomination to imagine that Aaron was commissioned to be "The Sacrifice of Israel". GOD FORBID!!
Aaron had One Role and he had one role only -- he carried the Confession of Sins and the Prayer for Salvation unto the Lord through the Vail of the Ark (and as per Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, we have now a better High Priest than Aaron, it must needs be said) unto the Lord of Hosts for the forgiveness of Sins.
Aaron neither knew nor received nor mediated the Prayers of the Saints; he merely carried them unto the Lord (as is equally seen in the collaborative references of Revelations 5 and 8). The Bringing of the Incense was an offeratory sacrifice given unto Him WHO ALONE knows the secret heart of Man:
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. ~~ (Matthew 6:6)
How, then, would you dare to make our Beloved Saints a party to such an Anti-Biblical Usurpation, as to assign to them a role of mediatorial entreaty which Aaron himself would in no wise have claimed?
- It is spiritual abomination to imagine that the People of God should "Pray unto the Saints". GOD FORBID!!
- It is spiritual abomination to imagine that the Saints either know or receive or mediate the Prayers of the Saints to God in any way, shape, or form.
AN EVERLASTING CURSE ON SUCH A BLASPHEMY!!
Such a blasphemy is to Attribute to mere Men that which belongs to God Alone: to omnisciently see and perfectly reward that which is Prayed in secret. God Forbid that we should exalt the Creature such as this.
No, the Economy of Heaven mirrors the Economy of Israel in this: even as Aaron neither knew nor received nor mediated the Prayers of the Saints, so neither do the Saints on High. Like Aaron they have carried the Confession of Sins and the Prayer for Salvation unto the Lord... they want no part of Unseemly Divination (in which, not being Omniscient, they have not the Power to partake anyway).
You say that we Protestants do not venerate the Saints??
I say that we Protestants venerate the Saints more highly than any Roman.We Protestants do indeed venerate the martyred Saints... but we do not seek to make them a party to any abominable divination, or strange incense, of which Our Blessed Saints want no thrice-damned part.
I am not going to keep asking because you admited yourself that you interpret scripture however you see fit with no authority except yourself--and you don't even see how laughable that is.Just for fun, let's consider the Protestant Hermeneutic:
- Scripture interprets Scripture.
Now, I suppose that one could allege that Scripture does not interpret Scripture. But such an allegation would contradict the teaching of 2 Timothy 3: 16-17:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect -- thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
On the basis of 2 Timothy 3:16-17, then, let's entertain for discussion the Protestant contention that Scripture is essentially perspicuous:
ADJECTIVE: Clearly expressed or presented; easy to understand.
Now, if Scripture is perspicuous, then the Delineation of Doctrine expressed in the Church Creeds is not so much a matter of the development of Doctrine (to use the common Roman expression), as it is the synthesis of Doctrine, already-existing and entirely present in the Scriptures themselves.
For example, if we wanted to promulgate a doctrinal Creed to the following effect:
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
In order to promulgate this Creed, we should find it necessary to test its Creedal Declarations against all relevant passages of Scripture, to determine whether or not such a Creed faithfully expressed perfect adherence to all relevant Scriptures, and without contradiction of any relevant Scripture.
So, now, let us Test this proposed Creed as to its perfect adherence to and non-contradiction with all relevant passages of Scripture.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 10:36)
the only Son of God,(John 3:16-18, cf. John 6:46)
eternally begotten of the Father, (John 1:18)
God from God, (John 8:58)
Light from Light, (John 1:9)
true God from true God, (Colossians 1:15)
begotten, not made, (John 1:2)
of one Being with the Father. (John 1:1)
Through him all things were made. (John 1:3)
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: (John 1:7)
by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. (John 1:14, cf. Luke 1:27, Matthew 1:20)The proposed Creed in question may be adjudged as Sound, for it perfectly adheres to all relevant passages of Scripture, and contradicts no relevant passage of Scripture whatsoever.
But is this Creed (which is found nowhere in Scripture in this format) somehow a "development" of Doctrine, as per the common Romanist claim for the alleged "authority" of their Church?? No, we have not "developed" a blessed thing.
Every single Creedal Declaration encompassed herein is already contained in Scripture, entirely perspicuous in every word; we have simply synthesized together the already-existent declarations of Scripture into a unitary, Creedal format. Contra the Roman view of "interpretation", no "development" of Doctrine has occurred at all; only a synthesis of already-existent Scripture into a unitary format.
In short, a good Scripturally-consistent Creed is rather more like a simple chain-reference than any sort of ex cathedra pronouncement.
The reason why the Mormon Creeds (and also the distinctly Romanistic Creeds) are to be rejected by Biblical Christians, is this simple test of Scriptural perspicuity, adherence, and non-contradiction.
- The Mormon Creeds do not adhere to the Perspicuous teaching of Scripture on Christology, and often contradict the Perspicuous teaching of Scripture. Ergo, they fail the test.
- Likewise, the distinctly Romanistic Creeds fail this test, when they posit the Semi-Pelagian Dogma of natural human response to the Things of the Spirit.
You are too obsessed with winning an argument.
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelation 8:3-4) "And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:8). ~~~ Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner.... One might object, saying, "But maybe those weren't prayers to the saints but prayers to God!" This may well be true. However, a person who says this only digs the hole deeper for himself since this would mean that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them!
How is this "digging a hole deeper"? I would argue that your choice of language (and your choice of doctrine) is fatally at fault here.
You are using the term "intercessory" as though it implies some sort of mediatorial entreaty by the Dead... even a mediatorial entreaty by the Justified Saints in Heaven (God forbid!! I must allege that Our Saints are grieved by this Roman Abomination, Sock).
Such an interpretation is expressly forbidden to the Church:
- For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Tim 2:5)
- There shall not be found among you any one... that useth divination... or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD. (Deu 18:10-12, excerpt)
- ...and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? (1 Sam 28:8b-9)
Here's an "Amillenial Protestant" HINT for ya, Sock -- Revelations is by far the most "Old Testamental" Book in the New Covenant Scripture, rivalled only by the Johannine Gospel (also written by John) for its hundreds of direct and specific Old Testament References. Revelation is the most "Biblical" Book in the New Testament, bearing in mind that the Palestinian Canon of the Old Covenant Scriptures were the "Bible" which the Author was referencing.
If you do not reference the Old Testament every single time you read a single passage of Revelation, you will always, always, always get your understanding DEAD WRONG. "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."
As concerns the specific passages under our consideration (Revelation 5:8, Revelation 8:3-4), realize that both these passages are a direct, specific, and umambiguous reference to Exodus chapter 30, verses 6 through 10:
And thou shalt put it before the vail that is by the ark of the testimony, before the mercy seat that is over the testimony, where I will meet with thee. And Aaron shall burn thereon sweet incense every morning: when he dresseth the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it. And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations. Ye shall offer no strange incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon. And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
Now, what should this tell you, Sock?
- It is spiritual abomination to imagine that the People of God should "Pray unto Aaron". GOD FORBID!!
- It is spiritual abomination to imagine that Aaron was commissioned to be "The Sacrifice of Israel". GOD FORBID!!
Aaron had One Role and he had one role only -- he carried the Confession of Sins and the Prayer for Salvation unto the Lord through the Vail of the Ark (and as per Paul's epistle to the Hebrews, we have now a better High Priest than Aaron, it must needs be said) unto the Lord of Hosts for the forgiveness of Sins.
Aaron neither knew nor received nor mediated the Prayers of the Saints; he merely carried them unto the Lord (as is equally seen in the collaborative references of Revelations 5 and 8). The Bringing of the Incense was an offeratory sacrifice given unto Him WHO ALONE knows the secret heart of Man:
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. ~~ (Matthew 6:6)
How, then, would you dare to make our Beloved Saints a party to such an Anti-Biblical Usurpation, as to assign to them a role of mediatorial entreaty which Aaron himself would in no wise have claimed?
- It is spiritual abomination to imagine that the People of God should "Pray unto the Saints". GOD FORBID!!
- It is spiritual abomination to imagine that the Saints either know or receive or mediate the Prayers of the Saints to God in any way, shape, or form.
AN EVERLASTING CURSE ON SUCH A BLASPHEMY!!
Such a blasphemy is to Attribute to mere Men that which belongs to God Alone: to omnisciently see and perfectly reward that which is Prayed in secret. God Forbid that we should exalt the Creature such as this.
No, the Economy of Heaven mirrors the Economy of Israel in this: even as Aaron neither knew nor received nor mediated the Prayers of the Saints, so neither do the Saints on High. Like Aaron they have carried the Confession of Sins and the Prayer for Salvation unto the Lord... they want no part of Unseemly Divination (in which, not being Omniscient, they have not the Power to partake anyway).
You say that we Protestants do not venerate the Saints??
I say that we Protestants venerate the Saints more highly than any Roman.We Protestants do indeed venerate the martyred Saints... but we do not seek to make them a party to any abominable divination, or strange incense, of which Our Blessed Saints want no thrice-damned part.
I am not going to keep asking because you admited yourself that you interpret scripture however you see fit with no authority except yourself--and you don't even see how laughable that is.Just for fun, let's consider the Protestant Hermeneutic:
- Scripture interprets Scripture.
Now, I suppose that one could allege that Scripture does not interpret Scripture. But such an allegation would contradict the teaching of 2 Timothy 3: 16-17:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect -- thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
On the basis of 2 Timothy 3:16-17, then, let's entertain for discussion the Protestant contention that Scripture is essentially perspicuous:
ADJECTIVE: Clearly expressed or presented; easy to understand.
Now, if Scripture is perspicuous, then the Delineation of Doctrine expressed in the Church Creeds is not so much a matter of the development of Doctrine (to use the common Roman expression), as it is the synthesis of Doctrine, already-existing and entirely present in the Scriptures themselves.
For example, if we wanted to promulgate a doctrinal Creed to the following effect:
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
In order to promulgate this Creed, we should find it necessary to test its Creedal Declarations against all relevant passages of Scripture, to determine whether or not such a Creed faithfully expressed perfect adherence to all relevant Scriptures, and without contradiction of any relevant Scripture.
So, now, let us Test this proposed Creed as to its perfect adherence to and non-contradiction with all relevant passages of Scripture.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 10:36)
the only Son of God,(John 3:16-18, cf. John 6:46)
eternally begotten of the Father, (John 1:18)
God from God, (John 8:58)
Light from Light, (John 1:9)
true God from true God, (Colossians 1:15)
begotten, not made, (John 1:2)
of one Being with the Father. (John 1:1)
Through him all things were made. (John 1:3)
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: (John 1:7)
by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. (John 1:14, cf. Luke 1:27, Matthew 1:20)The proposed Creed in question may be adjudged as Sound, for it perfectly adheres to all relevant passages of Scripture, and contradicts no relevant passage of Scripture whatsoever.
But is this Creed (which is found nowhere in Scripture in this format) somehow a "development" of Doctrine, as per the common Romanist claim for the alleged "authority" of their Church?? No, we have not "developed" a blessed thing.
Every single Creedal Declaration encompassed herein is already contained in Scripture, entirely perspicuous in every word; we have simply synthesized together the already-existent declarations of Scripture into a unitary, Creedal format. Contra the Roman view of "interpretation", no "development" of Doctrine has occurred at all; only a synthesis of already-existent Scripture into a unitary format.
In short, a good Scripturally-consistent Creed is rather more like a simple chain-reference than any sort of ex cathedra pronouncement.
The reason why the Mormon Creeds (and also the distinctly Romanistic Creeds) are to be rejected by Biblical Christians, is this simple test of Scriptural perspicuity, adherence, and non-contradiction.
- The Mormon Creeds do not adhere to the Perspicuous teaching of Scripture on Christology, and often contradict the Perspicuous teaching of Scripture. Ergo, they fail the test.
- Likewise, the distinctly Romanistic Creeds fail this test, when they posit the Semi-Pelagian Dogma of natural human response to the Things of the Spirit.
All believers are called to be saints, not all believers are Saints.
One more time on that . If one does not have a saving belief (in Christ)they are not only not believers they are not Saints.
Can you show me where Scripture states that those in heaven are dead?
They are physically dead.........or else the scripture would not speak of the "dead " rising
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
So it is obvious that the word of God makes a distinction between physical and spiritual death...they are physically dead
If so how did Moses and Elijah appear along with Christ to Peter, James and John?
Jesus is God . That was a confirmation to the apostles What happened to those saints who were resurrected following the death of Jesus?
Moses represented the Law and Elijah the prophets..This was a confirmation of the divinity of Christ..In Jewish law you need three witnesses..and present there was the Father and the law and the prohets
It was a "vision" and At no point were they told or allowed to interact with them and then they were advised to tell no one. This was not a signal that now communication with the dead was OK:>)
What happened to those saints who were resurrected following the death of Jesus? Did they die again and if so where does Scripture tell us that?
It is appointed to man once to die..Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Note that they did not appear to all..but to a select group (many) Scripture is silent on which saints were raised ( although Revelation indicates it may have been the martyrs) and it is silent on what happened to them..but again Revelation indicated they rose with Christ
Heaven isn't part of the living Church? Seems you define living as strictly in the corporeal, mortal sense, which contradicts Scripture.
The church means the called out ones..and one day we will all be together ..but once again that does not meant that we are to pray to the dead..
How could that be since Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all dead when God spoke to Moses?
God is the God of the living and the dead . HE can speak to whomever He chooses..
Are the Dead saints omnipresent? What do you see them doing all day?
You do not answer because you know what that answer means don't you?
too bad god is no help huh?
2598 The drama of prayer is fully revealed to us in the Word who became flesh and dwells among us. To seek to understand his prayer through what his witnesses proclaim to us in the Gospel is to approach the holy Lord Jesus as Moses approached the burning bush: first to contemplate him in prayer, then to hear how he teaches us to pray, in order to know how he hears our prayer.
2599 The Son of God who became Son of the Virgin learned to pray in his human heart. He learns to pray from his mother, who kept all the great things the Almighty had done and treasured them in her heart.[41] He learns to pray in the words and rhythms of the prayer of his people, in the synagogue at Nazareth and the Temple at Jerusalem. But his prayer springs from an otherwise secret source, as he intimates at the age of twelve: "I must be in my Father's house."[42] Here the newness of prayer in the fullness of time begins to be revealed: his filial prayer, which the Father awaits from his children, is finally going to be lived out by the only Son in his humanity, with and for men.
2600 The Gospel according to St. Luke emphasizes the action of the Holy Spirit and the meaning of prayer in Christ's ministry. Jesus prays before the decisive moments of his mission: before his Father's witness to him during his baptism and Transfiguration, and before his own fulfillment of the Father's plan of love by his Passion.[43] He also prays before the decisive moments involving the mission of his apostles: at his election and call of the Twelve, before Peter's confession of him as "the Christ of God," and again that the faith of the chief of the Apostles may not fail when tempted.[44] Jesus' prayer before the events of salvation that the Father has asked him to fulfill is a humble and trusting commitment of his human will to the loving will of the Father.
2601 "He was praying in a certain place and when he had ceased, one of his disciples said to him, 'Lord, teach us to pray."'[45] In seeing the Master at prayer the disciple of Christ also wants to pray. By contemplating and hearing the Son, the master of prayer, the children learn to pray to the Father.
2602 Jesus often draws apart to pray in solitude, on a mountain, preferably at night.[46] He includes all men in his prayer, for he has taken on humanity in his incarnation, and he offers them to the Father when he offers himself. Jesus, the Word who has become flesh, shares by his human prayer in all that "his brethren" experience; he sympathizes with their weaknesses in order to free them.[47] It was for this that the Father sent him. His words and works are the visible manifestation of his prayer in secret.
2603 The evangelists have preserved two more explicit prayers offered by Christ during his public ministry. Each begins with thanksgiving. In the first, Jesus confesses the Father, acknowledges, and blesses him because he has hidden the mysteries of the Kingdom from those who think themselves learned and has revealed them to infants, the poor of the Beatitudes.[48] His exclamation, "Yes, Father!" expresses the depth of his heart, his adherence to the Father's "good pleasure," echoing his mother's Fiat at the time of his conception and prefiguring what he will say to the Father in his agony. The whole prayer of Jesus is contained in this loving adherence of his human heart to the mystery of the will of the Father.[49]
2604 The second prayer, before the raising of Lazarus, is recorded by St. John.[50] Thanksgiving precedes the event: "Father, I thank you for having heard me," which implies that the Father always hears his petitions. Jesus immediately adds: "I know that you always hear me," which implies that Jesus, on his part, constantly made such petitions. Jesus' prayer, characterized by thanksgiving, reveals to us how to ask: before the gift is given, Jesus commits himself to the One who in giving gives himself. The Giver is more precious than the gift; he is the "treasure"; in him abides his Son's heart; the gift is given "as well."[51] The priestly prayer of Jesus holds a unique place in the economy of salvation.[52] A meditation on it will conclude Section One. It reveals the ever present prayer of our High Priest and, at the same time, contains what he teaches us about our prayer to our Father, which will be developed in Section Two.
2605 When the hour had come for him to fulfill the Father's plan of love, Jesus allows a glimpse of the boundless depth of his filial prayer, not only before he freely delivered himself up ("Abba . . . not my will, but yours."),[53] but even in his last words on the Cross, where prayer and the gift of self are but one: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do",[54] "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise", "Woman, behold your son" - "Behold your mother",[56] "I thirst.";[57] "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"[58] "It is finished";[59] "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!"[60] until the "loud cry" as he expires, giving up his spirit.[61]
2606 All the troubles, for all time, of humanity enslaved by sin and death, all the petitions and intercessions of salvation history are summed up in this cry of the incarnate Word. Here the Father accepts them and, beyond all hope, answers them by raising his Son. Thus is fulfilled and brought to completion the drama of prayer in the economy of creation and salvation. The Psalter gives us the key to prayer in Christ. In the "today" of the Resurrection the Father says: "You are my Son, today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession."[62]
The Letter to the Hebrews expresses in dramatic terms how the prayer of Jesus accomplished the victory of salvation: "In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard for his godly fear. Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered, and being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him."[63]
2607 When Jesus prays he is already teaching us how to pray. His prayer to his Father is the theological path (the path of faith, hope, and charity) of our prayer to God. But the Gospel also gives us Jesus' explicit teaching on prayer. Like a wise teacher he takes hold of us where we are and leads us progressively toward the Father. Addressing the crowds following him, Jesus builds on what they already know of prayer from the Old Covenant and opens to them the newness of the coming Kingdom. Then he reveals this newness to them in parables. Finally, he will speak openly of the Father and the Holy Spirit to his disciples who will be the teachers of prayer in his Church.
III. PRAYER OF INTERCESSION
2634 Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners.[112] He is "able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them."[113] The Holy Spirit "himself intercedes for us . . . and intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."[114]
2635 Since Abraham, intercession - asking on behalf of another has been characteristic of a heart attuned to God's mercy. In the age of the Church, Christian intercession participates in Christ's, as an expression of the communion of saints. In intercession, he who prays looks "not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others," even to the point of praying for those who do him harm.[115]
2636 The first Christian communities lived this form of fellowship intensely.[116] Thus the Apostle Paul gives them a share in his ministry of preaching the Gospel[117] but also intercedes for them.[118] The intercession of Christians recognizes no boundaries: "for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions," for persecutors, for the salvation of those who reject the Gospel.[119]
This section is rich with insight. I have only copied a small portion. If you wish to read the full text, click here: INTERCESSION
And God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matt. 22:31-32) So, if God identifies Himself with these men,(Abraham and Isaac),they are not dead but living,right?
Codie and I are friends and often "discuss" doctrine. I love him and I THINK he knows that
It is good to have to consider what you believe and why you believe it..
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