Lavish ceremonies, harsh criticism await new $200m cathedral in LA

BOSTON GLOBE ^ | August 31, 2002 | Kathleen Sharp

[Over50Million]

American Colleen said, "And, don't they have Msgr. Clark?"

Well, I'm a new fan of Msgr. Clark. (see below)

http://www.gaytoday.com/garchive/events/042902ev.htm

St. Patrick's Cathedral Becomes the Site of Historic Gathering
Compiled By GayToday
New York, New York-Community activists converging Sunday morning on St. Patrick's Cathedral circulated the following flyer, a 'Fact Sheet' addressing shameful attempts by the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church to blame gay sexuality for its own sins:
Don't Blame Gays for Your Sins!
The nation now knows that for decades the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has shamefully mishandled cases of sexual abuse by priests of children and minors.
Complaints have been disregarded, minimized, and not reported to the authorities. Known abusers have been shuffled from one parish to another, where they continued their abuse.
The harm to young people and their families has been compounded by the church's aggressive legal tactics when victims have sought redress through the courts.
Cardinal Edward Egan has been a central figure in this scandal. Church officials in Bridgeport were forced to admit the diocese kept a secret file on sexual assaults of children by priests and that only then-Bishop Egan had the key. While in Bridgeport, Egan used every possible legal tactic to fight survivors, and even today is fighting the release of documents that show his mishandling of abuse allegations. Brooklyn's Bishop Thomas V. Daily has a similar, abysmal record both here and in Boston.
Rather than accepting responsibility and moving aggressively to deal with abusers, church leaders are engaged in an orchestrated and cynical campaign to blame this moral and public relations disaster on gay people and gay men in the priesthood.
Last Sunday, from the pulpit of St. Patrick's Cathedral, Msgr. Eugene Clark, said that homosexuals are "disordered" and are to blame for the church's scandal. The Bishop of Detroit said the current crisis is "not truly a pedophilia-type problem, but a homosexual-type problem," and the head of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops said, "it is an ongoing struggle... to make sure that the Catholic priesthood is not dominated by homosexual men." Reports about the American cardinals meeting with Pope John Paul II this week once again quote church officials who cast gay people as emotionally disturbed and link our community with pedophilia. Witch hunts against gay seminarians and priests have already begun.
The media has fueled these attacks by repeating as fact unsubstantiated proclamations of the church and through unbalanced and sensationalistic reporting.
The Facts:
* There is not one shred of scientific evidence linking homosexuality to pedophilia.
* There is not one shred of scientific evidence indicating that that gay people are a greater risk to children or young people than heterosexuals.
* Experts state that priests who have sexually abused children and young people are not disproportionately gay, and that having sex with boys is often deemed "safer" by priests, not an expression of their sexual orientation.
* Thousands of lesbians and gay men are serving the Catholic Church as priests and nuns, carrying out its mission with absolute integrity, self-sacrifice and devotion.
* Gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people abhor and condemn sexual abuse of any person at any time.
* Our anger is not directed at Catholic people, but at the hurtful words and deeds of the church's hierarchy.
We demand that:
* The church hierarchy cease making gay people scapegoats for its own failure to protect children.
* The church hierarchy apologize for any statements that implicitly or explicitly link homosexuality and pedophilia or sexual abuse of young people.
* The church hierarchy stop covering up acts of sexual abuse and cease opposing legislation that would require immediate reporting to law enforcement of reports of sexual abuse of minors by clergy.
* The church hierarchy cease its witch hunts of priests, nuns, and seminarians.
* Msgr. Eugene Clark be removed as Rector of St. Patrick's Cathedral for his attacks on gay people.
* The media stop restating unsubstantiated claims by the church and report this issue in a balanced, professional, and non-sensational way.

[EODGUY]

NYer, when you're dealing with hundreds of millions of dollars that, IMHO, was wasted on a secular monstrosity, what's 7 million here or there?

I wish the money would have been used to support the Pro-Life movement and/or used to give aid to the poor.

Alas, it appears, as with perverted, impeached former presidents of our country, a legacy is more important than the above.

[NYer]

NYer, when you're dealing with hundreds of millions of dollars that, IMHO, was wasted on a secular monstrosity, what's 7 million here or there?

So true!! Yet another newspaper this morning, quoted the cost at 200+ million.

I kept wondering about the "convention center". Why? Who would hold their convention adjacent to a cathedral? I knew there had to more ... much more to this aspect. Not far away is Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral. Guess what he is building? Yup!! A convention center? (drstevej, do you understand the purpose for this building? I visited their web site and still don't grasp its purpose.)

Dr. Schuller emphasized that this new International Center for Possibility Thinking will be located at the heart of the glorious, world famous Crystal Cathedral campus -the world's very FIRST MUSEUM THAT MOTIVATES!!

DUELING CATHEDRALS ?

[Catholicguy]

This thread reminded me of the similar frustrations of another era.

"Again: since the pope's income to-day is larger than that of the wealthiest of wealthy men, why does he not build this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of indigent believers?"

<> Really? Cardinal Mahony's 21st Century Cathedral reminds you of a 16th Century Pope? No stretch there...

You posting Luther's comments reminds me that Luther condemned Calvin for his Usury <>

[Sock]

DUELING CATHEDRALS ?

or

DUELING EGOS ?

[Catholicguy]

Luther, Melancthon and Zwingli - reformers all - condemned Calvin for usury. I guess if Luther was right about the Pope, he is also right about Calvin

[Sock]

"Again: since the pope's income to-day is larger than that of the wealthiest of wealthy men, why does he not build this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of indigent believers?"

Quoting from the anti Catholic bigot James White, I see.

Why don't you tell us, Mr. PhD of tap dancing, what is the "pope's income"?

Does he spend his millions on gambling in Vegas?

A coke habit perhaps?

What does you bigoted pal James White have to say, Mr. PhD?

[drstevej]

***Quoting from the anti Catholic bigot James White, I see.***

Quoting Martin Luther, you are mistaken.

***What does you bigoted pal James White have to say, Mr. PhD?***

Actually, I have no idea who James White is much less what my "pal" has to say.

Do you really think that personal insults make your points more powerful? Perhaps getting your facts straight first would be a better approach.

[Sock]

Quoting Martin Luther, you are mistaken.

And Luther’s theses is found on White’s site, Mr. PhD. Click here, Mr. PhD

Do you really think that personal insults make your points more powerful? Perhaps getting your facts straight first would be a better approach.

Keep your indignation to yourself, Gumbo brain. I've got as much use for you and your little friends as a Jew would have for a neo nazi. You may fool a couple of people here, but you are a bigot and a jerk. Sure, you play the game of “let’s all get along” but given the opportunity, you are like the rest of the bigots as evidenced by your totally out of context post #26 on this thread.

[drstevej]

***And Luther’s theses is found on White’s site, Mr. PhD.***

So what? Do you think that is the only place where they are available on the web? BTW, that site was not my source. And I have not visited that site before.

Your anger is obvious and I will post to you no further. A simple "your post is ignored" will appear.

[sitetest]

Dear Sock,

Perhaps others who read what you have to write might be more inclined to pay attention to what you have to say, if you could refrain from insulting those who disagree with you.

sitetest

[Sock]

Perhaps others who read what you have to write might be more inclined to pay attention to what you have to say, if you could refrain from insulting those who disagree with you.

Perhaps you should refrain from posting to me as you've already agreed. I have little use for anti Catholic bigots but even less use for touchy feely moderists within the Church. I hope this will be my last reminder to you.

[drstevej]

***drstevej, do you understand the purpose for this building? I visited their web site and still don't grasp its purpose.***

I went to look at the pictures to see what the fuss was about. Didn't really read the text on the site.

BTW, I think the Crystal Cathedral is far more gawdy and clearly a monument to a man. Schuller's cathedral cost $15 million as I remember + the cost for Windex.

[sitetest]

Dear Sock,

I don't think that I said I would refrain from posting to you. I think I said that unless you could post to me without needless insults, that you should refrain from posting to me.

"I hope this will be my last reminder to you."

* chuckle *

sitetest

[Sock]

I don't think that I said I would refrain from posting to you. I think I said that unless you could post to me without needless insults, that you should refrain from posting to me.

That's not the way you said it but who cares.

Post to me if you need the attention, in the meantime

Stuff your bowling ball where the sun don't shine.

You can have the last word.

[sitetest]

Dear Sock,

"That's not the way you said it but who cares."

Well, Sock, here is what I said, on the thread "BILL O'REILLY BLASTS THE POPE".

After one of your typical tirades, I responded:

To: Sock

Dear Sock,

"Take your repeated 'objectively grave evil' comments and cram them, sitetest."

I regret that you seem to have difficulty treating people with respect and civility, as is your obligation.

Our dialogue, such as it is, has come to an end.

When you learn how to post without abusing your correspondent, we can try this again. Until then, please refrain from posting to me.

I'll remember you in my prayers.

In charity,

sitetest

41 posted on 7/30/02 12:51 PM Eastern by sitetest

As you can see, it is I who ended our conversation unilaterally, because you are unable to comment to those who disagree with you without insulting them.

I didn't say that I wouldn't post to you again. I gave you permission to try to post to me again when you developed the ability to do it without gratuitous insults.

I hope that clears up your misunderstanding.

sitetest

[Catholicguy]

Stuff your bowling ball where the sun don't shine.

<> I think that is prolly hyperbole. I don't think that is even possible; unless, that is, sock knows that act is possible based upon his own personal empiricism :)

[Catholicguy]

BTW, I just heard we have a new Bishop for Palm Beach County Diocese. Sean Patrick O'Malley, (French?)from Fall River, Mass. The local radio newsboy had nice things to say about him re sexual abuse response structures in Mass. I'l have to check him out...

[sitetest]

Dear Catholicguy,

Sometimes Sock actually has things that are worth saying.

I wish he understood that when he treats other posters like this, that it causes others to ignore him, entirely. And the good that he might do by posting is then substantially diminished.

A pity, huh?

As to where bowling balls might be placed, well, I used to bowl regularly in my K of C league, and the particular arrangement suggested by Sock is one that I never actually saw.

Though it wasn't infrequently suggested by one bowler to another.

;-)

sitetest

[sitetest]

Dear Catholicguy,

"BTW, I just heard we have a new Bishop for Palm Beach County Diocese. Sean Patrick O'Malley, (French?)from Fall River, Mass."

LOL. Yeah, French, that's it.

You folks down there really deserve a good bishop, this time. Those who have persevered in the faith in your diocese are models of Catholic faith.

sitetest