GIRM - A WITNESS TO UNBROKEN TRADITION

6. In setting forth its decrees for the revision of the Order of Mass, Vatican Council II directed, among other things, that some rites be restored "to the vigor they had in the tradition of the Fathers";11 this is a quotation from the Apostolic Constitution of 1570, by which St. Pius V promulgated the Tridentine Missal. The fact that the same words are used in reference to both Roman Missals indicates how both of them, although separated by four centuries, embrace one and the same tradition. And when the more profound elements of this tradition are considered, it becomes clear how remarkably and harmoniously this new Roman Missal improves on the older one.

7. The older Missal belongs to the difficult period of attacks against Catholic teaching on the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the ministerial priesthood, and the real and permanent presence of Christ under the eucharistic elements. St. Pius V was therefore especially concerned with preserving the relatively recent developments in the Church's tradition, then unjustly being assailed, and introduced only very slight changes into the sacred rites. In fact, the Roman Missal of 1570 differs very little from the first printed edition of 1474, which in turn faithfully follows the Missal used at the time of Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216). Manuscripts in the Vatican Library provided some verbal emendations, but they seldom allowed research into "ancient and approved authors" to extend beyond the examination of a few liturgical commentaries of the Middle Ages.

8. Today, on the other hand, countless studies of scholars have enriched the "tradition of the Fathers" that the revisers of the Missal under St. Pius V followed. After the Gregorian Sacramentary was first published in 1571, many critical editions of other ancient Roman and Ambrosian sacramentaries appeared. Ancient Spanish and Gallican liturgical books also became available, bringing to light many prayers of profound spirituality that had hitherto been unknown. Traditions dating back to the first centuries before the formation of the Eastern and Western rites are also better known today because so many liturgical documents have been discovered. The continuing progress in patristic studies has also illumined eucharistic theology through the teachings of such illustrious saints of Christian antiquity as Irenaeus, Ambrose, Cyril of Jerusalem, and John Chrysostom.

9. The "tradition of the Fathers" does not require merely the preservation of what our immediate predecessors have passed on to us. There must also be profound study and understanding of the Church's entire past and of all the ways in which its single faith has been expressed in the quite diverse human and social forms prevailing in Semitic, Greek, and Latin cultures. This broader view shows us how the Holy Spirit endows the people of God with a marvelous fidelity in preserving the deposit of faith unchanged, even though prayers and rites differ so greatly.

Do you feel frustrated? I sure don't. Seems to me THEY'RE the frustrated ones--still waiting for their Vatican II Springtime. When it didn't happen right away, they tried gimmicks, like having a Jubilee Party--to which nobody came. Even the latest World Youth Day was in the red. Meanwhile under its present tradition-wrecking leadership scandals rock the Church from one corner of the globe to the other. By their fruits you will know them!

Why should you feel frustrated? You and your cohorts are perfectly comfortable comparing the Mass I attend to a satanic ritual. If you're okay with that, then I'm sure your okay with the rest of the idiocy that you spew.

Am I frustrated with your behavior? No. It is evident that you have an agenda, and that is to draw souls away from the Catholic church. Therefore, I will not hesitate to point out the kind of individual you are to anyone who will listen, and I am confident that after following your tripe on a day to day basis that the lurkers can see you for what you are.

You agreed with ultima that the novus ordo is comparable to a satanic ritual mass. You're continual slandering of the Pope, your repeated attempts to draw Catholics into schism, your endless sneering at those of us who don't follow your lies, all point directly at who exactly is following evil. It sure isn't the people who exhibit fidelity toward the Catholic Church.

Not only are you distorting what I said, you are doing so deliberately. You know I have never compared the Novus Ordo to a Black Mass. I was making a point about validity. Even the Black Mass is valid. So is the Tridentine Mass. And so is the Novus Ordo. Validity therefore says nothing about whether a Mass is good or bad--that was my point. But you and your friends want to make traditionalists appear radical and extreme. Either that, or you are too dense to appreciate my point.

I have no agenda to draw people away from the Catholic Church, since I consider myself a practicing Catholic--so why would I do this? You begin and end all arguments by hurling the charge of schism. But it is not schismatic for Catholics to attend SSPX Masses and devotions. This has been settled definitively by Rome itself which not many years ago had overturned the Honolulu Bishop's excommunication of 6 Catholics who attended SSPX Masses after being warned to stay away. Bishop Ferraro like you assumed that it was schismatic to attend such Masses. But the letter from Cardinal Ratzinger's Office for the Doctrine of the Faith announced the excommunications were invalid since no acts of schism were committed by such attendance. You can't get any clearer than that. But if you and your friends on this site want to continue slandering other Catholics for attending the Mass of the Ages, be my guest.

Dear ultima ratio,

"Not only are you distorting what I said, you are doing so deliberately."

Then can you answer Catholicguy's question?

"What would be your reaction to this statement; 'Ultima and Bud oppose the normative mass just as Hitler opposed the normative mass when he was alive.'"

If not, ultima, then no one really cares about the rest of your self-justification.

"But it is not schismatic for Catholics to attend SSPX Masses and devotions."

It leads to schism. Or at least so says the Pope.

Oh, I forgot, you don't think you need to obey or believe him.

Kinda like a Protestant, huh?

"But if you and your friends on this site want to continue slandering other Catholics for attending the Mass of the Ages, be my guest."

A Mass said against the express instructions of the Supreme Pontiff, as are ALL the Masses said by the schismatic SSPX clergy, is not a Mass of the Ages. No matter how much it may resemble a licit Catholic Mass said by real Catholics.

sitetest

Here is what you wrote:

I will grant that the Novus Ordo is valid, generally speaking. But having said that, this is not saying much. A Black Mass, too, is valid, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

You lumped them together, whether you want to admit it or not. Everyone on the thread knew exactly how you meant it.

And according to my dictionary, schism is defined as “separation from a church or religious body.” If you have associated yourself with a church that has separated from the local bishop, how can that be anything but schism? And I know you have been through this before with posters like patent, polycarp, catholicguy, and sitetest so I know this isn't a new argument for you but--The SSPX teaches that sedevacantism. It is tolerated if presented as opinion, not dogma. It shouldn't be tolerated at all from a dogmatic standpoint.

What you call traditionalism is not Catholic Tradition. it Its a corruption; a departure from it..or at least in part. The real traditionalists are orthodox, so-called conservative Catholics such as myself, because we are obedient to both the pope and the actual Catholic Tradition, not the fairy-tale, distorted, self-serving, revisionist version of you schismatics or quasi-schismatics, in bondage to a sectarian mindset.

To: sitetest; ultima ratio

The words of one who no longer loves the Catholic Church, comparing the normative Mass of the Latin Rite to a black Mass.

The truth sometimes hurts.

140 posted on 9/3/02 6:57 AM Central by Bud McDuell [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

Yeah..I've heard of it. And you're intellectually dishonest.

Dear Bud McDuell,

"Once again you have taken the entire argument out of its context. Ultima ratio was stating that it was possible for a black mass to be valid. THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT."

No, Bud, now you know that's not true. I'm a little surprised at you for trying that game.

"'The words of one who no longer loves the Catholic Church, comparing the normative Mass of the Latin Rite to a black Mass.' [Emphasis added]

"The truth sometimes hurts."

The words that you use confirm the putative truth of the comparison of the normative Mass to a black Mass. A comparison, as Catholicguy so ably pointed out with his (unanswered) question, actually equates the two with each other. Thus, your words confirmed the view that the normative Mass of the Latin Rite of the Holy Catholic Church equates to a black Mass.

If you now wish to say that you misspoke, that your clear words don't represent your real views, I'm ready to accept that.

But, in fact, in your response to me, you are quoting me from a place where I don't even mention the validity of a black Mass. You only affirm, in your statement, the putative truth of the comparison, and thus, the equivalence thereof.

Which is an evil thing to have said.

If you wish to retract it, I'm willing to accept that.

sitetest

Dear Bud McDuell,

Well, this is progress. At least you are now again admitting that you were confirming the comparison the two, rather than merely confirming the truth that a black Mass can be valid.

As Catholicguy pointed out, the way in which the comparison was made reasonably can be seen as an equivalence. In fact, it is the clearest, best, most reasonable conclusion from what was said. Can you answer this question?

"What would be your reaction to this statement; 'Ultima and Bud oppose the normative mass just as Hitler opposed the normative mass when he was alive.'"

That is the form of the comparison that ultima made between the Mass of Pope Paul VI and a black Mass. And the comparison which you affirmed.

If you can't deal with what you actually SAID as opposed possibly to that which you might have wished to say, hey, that's not my problem.

As I said, in charity, perhaps you didn't realize how your words, and ultima's words, came across. If you wish to retract it, I'd accept that.

"By the way, I assisted at a Novus Ordo Mass on the feast of the Assumptiuon a couple of weeks ago."

Good for you! Keep it up!

"If I equated that Mass to a Black Mass - I wouldn't have gone near that Church."

Hmmm... I have allowed for the possibility that you didn't realize what you were saying. I've suggested that you retract what you said, because perhaps you didn't mean it the way it all came out.

Anyway, this horse has been thoroughly beaten. Have a nice day.

By the way, where's ultima? I thought you two worked the same shift.

;-)

sitetest

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