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Defending the Deuterocanonicals
CIN ^ | James Akin

Posted on 08/19/2002 5:30:51 PM PDT by JMJ333

When Catholics and Protestants talk about "the Bible," the two groups actually have two different books in mind.

In the sixteenth century, the Protestant Reformers removed a large section of the Old Testament that was not compatible with their theology. They charged that these writings were not inspired Scripture and branded them with the pejorative title "Apocrypha."

Catholics refer to them as the "deuterocanonical" books (since they were disputed by a few early authors and their canonicity was established later than the rest), while the rest are known as the "protocanonical" books (since their canonicity was established first).

Following the Protestant attack on the integrity of the Bible, the Catholic Church infallibly reaffirmed the divine inspiration of the deuterocanonical books at the Council of Trent in 1546. In doing this, it reaffirmed what had been believed since the time of Christ.

The Church does not deny that there are ancient writings which are "apocryphal." During the early Christian era, there were scores of manuscripts which purported to be Holy Scripture but were not. Many have survived to the present day, like the Apocalypse of Peter and the Gospel of Thomas, which all Christian churches regard as spurious writings that don't belong in Scripture.

During the first century, the Jews disagreed as to what constituted the canon of Scripture. In fact, there were a large number of different canons in use, including the growing canon used by Christians. In order to combat the spreading Christian cult, rabbis met at the city of Jamnia or Javneh in A.D. 90 to determine which books were truly the Word of God. They pronounced many books, including the Gospels, to be unfit as scriptures. This canon also excluded seven books (Baruch, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, and the Wisdom of Solomon, plus portions of Esther and Daniel) that Christians considered part of the Old Testament.

The group of Jews which met at Javneh became the dominant group for later Jewish history, and today most Jews accept the canon of Javneh. However, some Jews, such as those from Ethiopia, follow a different canon which is identical to the Catholic Old Testament and includes the seven deuterocanonical books (cf. Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 6, p. 1147).

Needless to say, the Church disregarded the results of Javneh. First, a Jewish council after the time of Christ is not binding on the followers of Christ. Second, Javneh rejected precisely those documents which are foundational for the Christian Church -- the Gospels and the other documents of the New Testament. Third, by rejecting the deuterocanonicals, Javneh rejected books which had been used by Jesus and the apostles and which were in the edition of the Bible that the apostles used in everyday life -- the Septuagint.

The Apostles & the Deuteros

The Christian acceptance of the deuterocanonical books was logical because the deuterocanonicals were also included in the Septuagint, the Greek edition of the Old Testament which the apostles used to evangelize the world. Two thirds of the Old Testament quotations in the New are from the Septuagint. Yet the apostles nowhere told their converts to avoid seven books of it. Like the Jews all over the world who used the Septuagint, the early Christians accepted the books they found in it. They knew that the apostles would not mislead them and endanger their souls by putting false scriptures in their hands -- especially without warning them against them.

But the apostles did not merely place the deuterocanonicals in the hands of their converts as part of the Septuagint. They regularly referred to the deuterocanonicals in their writings. For example, Hebrews 11 encourages us to emulate the heroes of the Old Testament and in the Old Testament "Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life" (Heb. 11:35).

There are a couple of examples of women receiving back their dead by resurrection in the Protestant Old Testament. You can find Elijah raising the son of the widow of Zarepheth in 1 Kings 17, and you can find his successor Elisha raising the son of the Shunammite woman in 2 Kings 4, but one thing you can never find -- anywhere in the Protestant Old Testament, from front to back, from Genesis to Malachi -- is someone being tortured and refusing to accept release for the sake of a better resurrection. If you want to find that, you have to look in the Catholic Old Testament -- in the deuterocanonical books Martin Luther cut out of his Bible.

The story is found in 2 Maccabees 7, where we read that during the Maccabean persecution, "It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and cords, to partake of unlawful swine's flesh. . . . [B]ut the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly, saying, 'The Lord God is watching over us and in truth has compassion on us . . . ' After the first brother had died . . . they brought forward the second for their sport. . . . he in turn underwent tortures as the first brother had done. And when he was at his last breath, he said, 'You accursed wretch, you dismiss us from this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up to an everlasting renewal of life'" (2 Macc. 7:1, 5-9).

One by one the sons die, proclaiming that they will be vindicated in the resurrection. "The mother was especially admirable and worthy of honorable memory. Though she saw her seven sons perish within a single day, she bore it with good courage because of her hope in the Lord. She encouraged each of them . . . [saying], 'I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws,'" telling the last one, "Do not fear this butcher, but prove worthy of your brothers. Accept death, so that in God's mercy I may get you back again with your brothers" (2 Macc. 7:20-23, 29).

This is but one example of the New Testaments' references to the deuterocanonicals. The early Christians were thus fully justified in recognizing these books as Scripture, for the apostles not only set them in their hands as part of the Bible they used to evangelize the world, but also referred to them in the New Testament itself, citing the things they record as examples to be emulated.

The Fathers Speak

The early acceptance of the deuterocanonicals was carried down through Church history. The Protestant patristics scholar J. N. D. Kelly writes: "It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive than the [Protestant Old Testament] . . . It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called Apocrypha or deutero-canonical books. The reason for this is that the Old Testament which passed in the first instance into the hands of Christians was . . . the Greek translation known as the Septuagint. . . . most of the Scriptural quotations found in the New Testament are based upon it rather than the Hebrew.. . . In the first two centuries . . . the Church seems to have accept all, or most of, these additional books as inspired and to have treated them without question as Scripture. Quotations from Wisdom, for example, occur in 1 Clement and Barnabas. . . Polycarp cites Tobit, and the Didache [cites] Ecclesiasticus. Irenaeus refers to Wisdom, the History of Susannah, Bel and the Dragon [i.e., the deuterocanonical portions of Daniel], and Baruch. The use made of the Apocrypha by Tertullian, Hippolytus, Cyprian and Clement of Alexandria is too frequent for detailed references to be necessary" (Early Christian Doctrines, 53-54).

The recognition of the deuterocanonicals as part of the Bible that was given by individual Fathers was also given by the Fathers as a whole, when they met in Church councils. The results of councils are especially useful because they do not represent the views of only one person, but what was accepted by the Church leaders of whole regions.

The canon of Scripture, Old and New Testament, was finally settled at the Council of Rome in 382, under the authority of Pope Damasus I. It was soon reaffirmed on numerous occasions. The same canon was affirmed at the Council of Hippo in 393 and at the Council of Carthage in 397. In 405 Pope Innocent I reaffirmed the canon in a letter to Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse. Another council at Carthage, this one in the year 419, reaffirmed the canon of its predecessors and asked Pope Boniface to "confirm this canon, for these are the things which we have received from our fathers to be read in church." All of these canons were identical to the modern Catholic Bible, and all of them included the deuterocanonicals.

This exact same canon was implicitly affirmed at the seventh ecumenical council, II Nicaea (787), which approved the results of the 419 Council of Carthage, and explicitly reaffirmed at the ecumenical councils of Florence (1442), Trent (1546), Vatican I (1870), and Vatican II (1965).

The Reformation Attack on the Bible

The deuterocanonicals teach Catholic doctrine, and for this reason they were taken out of the Old Testament by Martin Luther and placed in an appendix without page numbers. Luther also took out four New Testament books -- Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation -- and put them in an appendix without page numbers as well. These were later put back into the New Testament by other Protestants, but the seven books of the Old Testament were left out. Following Luther they had been left in an appendix to the Old Testament, and eventually the appendix itself was dropped (in 1827 by the British and Foreign Bible Society), which is why these books are not found at all in most contemporary Protestant Bibles, though they were appendicized in classic Protestant translations such as the King James Version.

The reason they were dropped is that they teach Catholic doctrines that the Protestant Reformers chose to reject. Earlier we cited an example where the book of Hebrews holds up to us an Old Testament example from 2 Maccabees 7, an incident not to be found anywhere in the Protestant Bible, but easily discoverable in the Catholic Bible. Why would Martin Luther cut out this book when it is so clearly held up as an example to us by the New Testament? Simple: A few chapters later it endorses the practice of praying for the dead so that they may be freed from the consequences of their sins (2 Macc. 12:41-45); in other words, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Since Luther chose to reject the historic Christian teaching of purgatory (which dates from before the time of Christ, as 2 Maccabees shows), he had to remove that book from the Bible and appendicize it. (Notice that he also removed Hebrews, the book which cites 2 Maccabees, to an appendix as well.)

To justify this rejection of books that had been in the Bible since before the days of the apostles (for the Septuagint was written before the apostles), the early Protestants cited as their chief reason the fact that the Jews of their day did not honor these books, going back to the council of Javneh in A.D. 90. But the Reformers were aware of only European Jews; they were unaware of African Jews, such as the Ethiopian Jews who accept the deuterocanonicals as part of their Bible. They glossed over the references to the deuterocanonicals in the New Testament, as well as its use of the Septuagint. They ignored the fact that there were multiple canons of the Jewish Scriptures circulating in first century, appealing to a post-Christian Jewish council which has no authority over Christians as evidence that "The Jews don't except these books." In short, they went to enormous lengths to rationalize their rejection of these books of the Bible.

Rewriting Church History

In later years they even began to propagate the myth that the Catholic Church "added" these seven books to the Bible at the Council of Trent!

Protestants also try to distort the patristic evidence in favor of the deuterocanonicals. Some flatly state that the early Church Fathers did not accept them, while others make the more moderate claim that certain important Fathers, such as Jerome, did not accept them.

It is true that Jerome, and a few other isolated writers, did not accept most of the deuterocanonicals as Scripture. However, Jerome was persuaded, against his original inclination, to include the deuterocanonicals in his Vulgate edition of the Scriptures-testimony to the fact that the books were commonly accepted and were expected to be included in any edition of the Scriptures.

Furthermore, it can be documented that in his later years Jerome did accept certain deuterocanonical parts of the Bible. In his reply to Rufinus, he stoutly defended the deuterocanonical portions of Daniel even though the Jews of his day did not.

He wrote, "What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]). Thus Jerome acknowledged the principle by which the canon was settled -- the judgment of the Church, not of later Jews.

Other writers Protestants cite as objecting to the deuterocanonicals, such as Athanasius and Origen, also accepted some or all of them as canonical. For example, Athanasius, accepted the book of Baruch as part of his Old Testament (Festal Letter 39), and Origen accepted all of the deuterocanonicals, he simply recommended not using them in disputations with Jews.

However, despite the misgivings and hesitancies of a few individual writers such as Jerome, the Church remained firm in its historic affirmation of the deuterocanonicals as Scripture handed down from the apostles. Protestant patristics scholar J. N. D. Kelly remarks that in spite of Jerome's doubt, "For the great majority, however, the deutero-canonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense. Augustine, for example, whose influence in the West was decisive, made no distinction between them and the rest of the Old Testament . . . The same inclusive attitude to the Apocrypha was authoritatively displayed at the synods of Hippo and Carthage in 393 and 397 respectively, and also in the famous letter which Pope Innocent I dispatched to Exuperius, bishop of Toulouse, in 405" (Early Christian Doctrines, 55-56).

It is thus a complete myth that, as Protestants often charge, the Catholic Church "added" the deuterocanonicals to the Bible at the Council of Trent. These books had been in the Bible from before the time canon was initially settled in the 380s. All the Council of Trent did was reaffirm, in the face of the new Protestant attack on Scripture, what had been the historic Bible of the Church -- the standard edition of which was Jerome's own Vulgate, including the seven deuterocanonicals!

The New Testament Deuteros

It is ironic that Protestants reject the inclusion of the deuterocanonicals at councils such as Hippo (393) and Carthage (397), because these are the very same early Church councils that Protestants appeal to for the canon of the New Testament. Prior to the councils of the late 300s, there was a wide range of disagreement over exactly what books belonged in the New Testament. Certain books, such as the gospels, acts, and most of the epistles of Paul had long been agreed upon. However a number of the books of the New Testament, most notably Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, and Revelation remained hotly disputed until the canon was settled. They are, in effect, "New Testament deuterocanonicals."

While Protestants are willing to accept the testimony of Hippo and Carthage (the councils they most commonly cite) for the canonicity of the New Testament deuterocanonicals, they are unwilling to accept the testimony of Hippo and Carthage for the canonicity of the Old Testament deuterocanonicals. Ironic indeed!


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To: Goldhammer
They are in the Bible.

I believe I was addressing one from our camp. If so, and I could be wrong, then to us it isn't part of the Bible.

But you already knew that....so perhaps you wanted me to respond. Anything on your mind you want to discuss? I've always got time for a friend.

101 posted on 08/21/2002 2:33:20 PM PDT by xzins
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Comment #102 Removed by Moderator

To: Goldhammer
If this is the case, and if, say, a protestant decides in good conscience that the Bible really does contain all the books of the Bible after all, would this be wrong, in your view?

I'm an odd protestant, I think, Gold. You know from our prior discussion that if a new CERTAIN apostolic book came to light that I would accept it. (Once convinced, of course.)

I believe that I'm called to work out my own salvation (with fear and trembling.) I wouldn't lightly or easily accept the deutero's, but if convinced that they truly were the words of God, then, yes, I would accept them.

Actually, I don't consider myself a protestant. I've said that before. I'm not protesting anything more on your side of the aisle than I am issues in my own Methodism....and in other Christian groups.

I truly do like to see myself as a scriptural Christian.

103 posted on 08/21/2002 3:18:03 PM PDT by xzins
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To: Goldhammer; xzins; JMJ333
Jerome

Preface to the Books of the Kings

. . . As, then, there are twenty-two elementary characters by means of which we write in Hebrew all we say, and the compass of the human voice is contained within their limits, so we reckon twenty-two books, by which, as by the alphabet of the doctrine of God, a righteous man is instructed in tender infancy, and, as it were, while still in the breast. The first of these books is called Bresith, to which we give the name Genesis. The second, Elle Smoth, which bears the name Exodus; the third, Vaiecra, that is Leviticus; the fourth, Vaiedabber, which we call Numbers; the fifth, Elle Addabarim, which is entitled Deuteronomy. These are the five books of Moses, which they properly call Thorath, that is, 'Law.' The second class is composed of the Prophets, and they begin with Jesus the son of Nun, who among them is called Joshua the son of Nun. Next in the series is Sophtim, that is, the book of Judges; and in the same book they include Ruth, because the events narrated occurred in the days of the Judges. Then comes Samuel, which we call first and second Kings. The fourth is Malachim, that is, Kings, which is contained in the third and fourth volumes of Kings. And it is far better to say Malachim, Kings, than Malachoth, Kingdoms. For the author does not describe the kingdoms of many nations, but that of one people, the people of Israel, which is comprised in the twelve tribes. The fifth is Isaiah, the sixth Jeremiah, the seventh, Ezekiel, the eighth is the book of the Twelve Prophets, which is called among the Jews Thare Asra. To the third class belong the Hagiographa, of which the first book begins with Job, the second with David, whose writings they divide into five parts and comprise in one volume of Psalms; the third is Solomon, in three books, Proverbs, which they call Parables, that is Masaloth, Ecclesiastes, that is Coeleth, the Song of Songs, which they denote by the title Sir Assirim; the sixth is Daniel; the seventh, Dabre Aiamim, that is, 'Words of Days,' which we may more expressively call a chronicle of the whole of the sacred history, the book that amongst us is called first and second Chronicles; the eighth, Ezra, which itself is likewise divided amongst Greeks and Latins into two books; the ninth is Esther. And so there are twenty-two books of the Old Testament; that is, five of Moses, eight of the Prophets, nine of the Hagiographa, though some include Ruth and Kinoth [Lamentations] amongst the Hagiographa, and think that these books ought to be reckoned separately; we should thus have twenty-four books of the old law. And these the Apocalypse of John represents by the twenty-four elders who adore the Lamb and with downcast looks offer their crowns, while in their presence stand the four living creatures with eyes before and behind, that is, looking to the past and the future, and with unwearied voice crying, Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who wast, and art, and art to come.

This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a "helmeted" introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd, are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees I have found to be Hebrew, the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style.

104 posted on 08/21/2002 3:36:11 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Goldhammer; JMJ333; xzins
I can see why the Protestants would have problems with this angelic endorsement of ritual magic. Tobit sounds more like Hobbit than Bible.

=====

Tobit

Chapter 6

1 And as they went on their journey, they came in the evening to the river Tigris, and they lodged there. 2 And when the young man went down to wash himself, a fish leaped out of the river, and would have devoured him. 3 Then the angel said unto him, Take the fish. And the young man laid hold of the fish, and drew it to land. 4 To whom the angel said, Open the fish, and take the heart and the liver and the gall, and put them up safely. 5 So the young man did as the angel commanded him; and when they had roasted the fish, they did eat it: then they both went on their way, till they drew near to Ecbatane. 6 Then the young man said to the angel, Brother Azarias, to what use is the heart and the liver and the gall of the fish? 7 And he said unto him, Touching the heart and the liver, if a devil or an evil spirit trouble any, we must make a smoke thereof before the man or the woman, and the party shall be no more vexed. 8 As for the gall, it is good to anoint a man that hath whiteness in his eyes, and he shall be healed.

105 posted on 08/21/2002 3:44:48 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: american colleen

XS>"The Council of Trent added the Deuterocanon to have Scriptural backup for its many false teachings, and in doing so contradicted the universal practice of Christianity up to that time."


ac>The Council of Trent added nothing to the Old Testament, rather it simply re-affirmed the ancient practice of the Apostles and the decisions of the early Church through a universal dogmatic definition.

ac>The 59th decree of the Council of Laodicea in 363 AD gives a list of the Old Testament books which is entirely identical with the decree of the Council of Trent. The Council of Rome in 383 AD and the Councils of Carthage 393, 397 and 419 AD all published canons again identical with that of the Council of Trent. So did Pope Innocent I in 405 AD, Pope Gelasius I in 495 AD, Pope Hormisdas in 520 AD and Pope Eugene IV at the Council of Florence in 1441. The practice of the separated Oriental Churches has likewise always been the same.

Perhaps this was done with the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals.

Barukh haba b'Shem Adonai
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord
Y'shua HaMashiach

chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>

106 posted on 08/21/2002 4:01:31 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012
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To: drstevej
The Apostles seemed to think it worthy to use. Why were they wrong?
107 posted on 08/21/2002 4:04:17 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
***The Apostles seemed to think it worthy to use. Why were they wrong?***

I presume you mean apostles beyond the 1st century. (You reckon the term apostle differently than I since you hold apostolic succession and I do not.)

Nothing wrong with reading these books, quoting these books, encouraging people to gain insight from them. The same is true of Pilgrim's Progress. Placing them in the canon on a par with the books of the New and Old Testament is wrong as Jerome notes.

We can talk about why they were wrong after we establish that Jerome [to cite someone you know well] excluded them from the canon. BTW, Was he wrong?


108 posted on 08/21/2002 4:13:32 PM PDT by drstevej
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Comment #109 Removed by Moderator

Comment #110 Removed by Moderator

To: Gophack
In defending the use of the deuterocononicals by Jesus and the apostles you provided a link with 112 references from the New Testament that you say refers to these Old Testament books (By James Akin.)

I think most people who see a list this large just assume that it is correct, and do not take the time to check into each reference. I'm certainly one of those people who doesn't have the time to check everything out.

I did, however, recognize one of these and am a little disappointed. The list says that Matthew 4:15 refers to
1 Maccabees 5:15. I don't have a Catholic Bible with me so I can't check up on this right now.

It doesn't really matter. Maybe 1 Maccabees 5:15 does have this information and maybe it doesn't.

But let's look at Matthew 4:14, just one verse prior to the verse that says refers to 1 Maccabbees 5:15.

Matthew 4:14 says, " This fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy: "

Let's be fair here. Matthew is specifically saying that verse 15 is a fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy, which can be found in Isaiah 9:1-2.

To say that 1 Maccabbees 5:15 is referenced by Matthew 4:15 is not accurate, even if the information is in there, because the author tells us exactly what he is referring to.

This is misleading and makes me wonder about the other 111 references.

I mostly just read the posts and follow the debates. It's clear that on both sides of arguements people sometimes take liberties. However, being a person in search of the truth wherever it leads me, I become distrustfull of the material posted that I cannot check out or don't have time to check out when something I can check out is misleading (again, on either side of the debate.)

When someone posts something that is misleading, some people will accept it. Some others, however, will form a bias or skepticism to whomever posted it.

Anyhow, that's what I had to say....your comments are welcomed.
111 posted on 08/21/2002 4:22:08 PM PDT by KennyV
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To: drstevej
In regard to Jerome from the above article:

Furthermore, it can be documented that in his later years Jerome did accept certain deuterocanonical parts of the Bible. In his reply to Rufinus, he stoutly defended the deuterocanonical portions of Daniel even though the Jews of his day did not.

He wrote, "What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]). Thus Jerome acknowledged the principle by which the canon was settled -- the judgment of the Church, not of later Jews.

112 posted on 08/21/2002 4:23:11 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: KennyV
Your point is well taken. Further along on the thread I pointed out that James Akin said in leading up to the list that these references had been compiled by a variety of sources and he hadn't checked them out. I should have thought twice before posting the information.

Also, it's important to note that a biblical scholar proficient in Greek needs to do the comparison, because translations are often skewed to make sense to us.

However, I still hold that because we know that the apostles used the Greek bible, which had these seven books in them, that they viewed them as Scripture and therefore they should be included in the Canon as the inspired Word of God.

God bless!

113 posted on 08/21/2002 4:35:18 PM PDT by Gophack
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To: Goldhammer; JMJ333
Didn't say Jerome was my authority, did I? Your statement, "

I said Jerome was right to exclude them from the canon in his preface. That he subsequently as you say "conformed his work to the will of Rome" isn't surprising. There would be a pretty high price tag not to.

Furthermore, in a system that places Sripture and tradition on a par, including them in Scripture is not that big of a deal.



114 posted on 08/21/2002 4:37:09 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
And in reference to apostles it is meant as Christ's apostles. Again from the article:

The Apostles & the Deuteros

The Christian acceptance of the deuterocanonical books was logical because the deuterocanonicals were also included in the Septuagint, the Greek edition of the Old Testament which the apostles used to evangelize the world. Two thirds of the Old Testament quotations in the New are from the Septuagint. Yet the apostles nowhere told their converts to avoid seven books of it. Like the Jews all over the world who used the Septuagint, the early Christians accepted the books they found in it. They knew that the apostles would not mislead them and endanger their souls by putting false scriptures in their hands -- especially without warning them against them.

But the apostles did not merely place the deuterocanonicals in the hands of their converts as part of the Septuagint. They regularly referred to the deuterocanonicals in their writings. For example, Hebrews 11 encourages us to emulate the heroes of the Old Testament and in the Old Testament "Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life" (Heb. 11:35).

115 posted on 08/21/2002 4:43:16 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Goldhammer; JMJ333
Drj: Tobit sounds more like Hobbit than Bible.

GH: As some said earlier in this thread, protestants excised these books because they didn't like the content. Your statement above reinforces this view.

Drj:
[1] Can you show one shred of evidence that this passage in Tobit was the basis for any Protestant Reformer for deciding to exclude the books? If so, cite the Reformer and the evidence. Otherwise you are merely speculating, are you not?

[2] Do you endorse this angelically announced practice cited in Tobit 6:6-7 since you believe the book is canonical? ...Please do not avoid this question!...


116 posted on 08/21/2002 4:43:20 PM PDT by drstevej
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Comment #117 Removed by Moderator

To: drstevej
From the New American Bible/US Catholic Bishops:

Although the Book of Tobit is usually listed with the historical books, it more correctly stands midway between them and the wisdom literature. It contains numerous maxims like those found in the wisdom books (cf Tob 4:3-19:1; 12:6, 10; 14:7, 9) as well as the customary sapiential themes: fidelity to the law, the intercessory function of angels, piety toward parents, the purity of marriage, reverence for the dead, and the value of almsgiving, prayer, and fasting.

118 posted on 08/21/2002 4:56:26 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
JMJ: Hebrews 11 encourages us to emulate the heroes of the Old Testament and in the Old Testament "Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life" (Heb. 11:35). Identification of any of these references to the LXX is not definitive, nor would it be alarming to me if it were.

Drj: Where does Hebrew 11 mention the Old Testament as the exclusive source for these illustrations of faith? I think you are reading your conclusion into the text.

JMJ: The Christian acceptance of the deuterocanonical books was logical because the deuterocanonicals were also included in the Septuagint, the Greek edition of the Old Testament which the apostles used to evangelize the world. Two thirds of the Old Testament quotations in the New are from the Septuagint.

Drj: Of these copious quotes of the LXX how mnay are from deutero canonical books? Your quote sounds like the apostles took the LXX under their arm similar to how we carry our Bibles with us to church or when witnessing. BTW, several of my Bibles have a lot of study notes in the back along with some good essays and articles. I don't view them as Scripture I don't warn people to avoid reading them or to rip them out. However, from time to time in a sermon I make a quotation from these notes as a illustration or explanation of the passage I am teaching. (Someday I may even quote you!)

Please excuse me for a while, I have some errands that need my attention. Pleases the wife, you know.
119 posted on 08/21/2002 5:00:17 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej

120 posted on 08/21/2002 5:03:51 PM PDT by JMJ333
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