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"Don't the Arminians argue that the "altar call" or a "baptism" is merely an outward sign of something that has already happened internally? That it serves as a witness."

That hasn't been my experience. I have seen many times when people have said "walk this aisle and be saved", or "repeat this prayer after me and be saved". These are folks who like to boast about how many "they" have saved", and how many "decisions" were made during their services. I know, personally, of one young man who went down an aisle looking for the bathroom (at age 7) who quickly found himself "saved" and baptized. His experience was one of frustration and discouragement, since he subsequently discovered in his adult years that he hadn't been any more saved than my dog. After his true encounter with Christ he shared with me just how deluded he had been.

I am afraid that there are many countless thousands who believe that they are "saved" just because they did what some preacher said was required, never mind that they never repented nor believed.

That hasn't been my experience. I have seen many times when people have said "walk this aisle and be saved", or "repeat this prayer after me and be saved".

I have seen differently. The Baptists I am familiar with always said that the Baptism was not anything other than a witness. I thought Baptists were Arminians?

These are folks who like to boast about how many "they" have saved", and how many "decisions" were made during their services.

Which is vanity, of course.

I am afraid that there are many countless thousands who believe that they are "saved" just because they did what some preacher said was required, never mind that they never repented nor believed.

If a preacher was putting people through some rote routine without engaging the people to repent and believe first, then he is in error.

(Of course, our rote routines are not entered into on a whim, but only after a long period of study and prayer.)

SD

That hasn't been my experience. I have seen many times when people have said "walk this aisle and be saved", or "repeat this prayer after me and be saved". These are folks who like to boast about how many "they" have saved", and how many "decisions" were made during their services. I know, personally, of one young man who went down an aisle looking for the bathroom (at age 7) who quickly found himself "saved" and baptized. His experience was one of frustration and discouragement, since he subsequently discovered in his adult years that he hadn't been any more saved than my dog. After his true encounter with Christ he shared with me just how deluded he had been.

Would you believe I have seen the "sinners prayer " written on the back of a program. During the service the pastor says ..NOW EVERYONE read this prayer with me.

Once I asked what happened to "repent " he said we can get to that AFTER they are saved...Incredible!

Part of the problem in the church today (IMHO) is we expect taking someone unsaved to church is important. That is NOT the way the early church worked..you were saved and baptised BEFORE you went to the church

My expectation is that God will select those that are His and then act sovereignly to save him....in church out of church , Pastor or no pastor ...