Posted on 07/28/2002 12:34:13 AM PDT by A.J.Armitage
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him What shall we do that we might work the works of God. Jesus answered and said unto them This is the work of God that ye believe on him who he hath sent.
Becky
Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
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Becky we are all called to Repent and believe..that IS the gospel.. But as Jesus indicates here only the sheep will hear and obey..
Becky you can not turrn a goat into a sheep.
morning woody
Naw they do not will to be sheep:>)
That's right. Only God can make a sheep. He only loves the sheep. He only gives the sheep their sheepiness, which allows them to be saved.
Why this cruel and arbitrary God is preferred over a God who gives us free choice escapes me.
SD
Obviously not. As there are, and will be, people consigned to hell.
"Universalism" (that all will be saved) is a heresy that makes a total mockery of any moral teaching. If all are to be saved, regardless of how they behave, then God is not just.
SD
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. - Romans 3:10-18
That is why God graciously chooses to save some, knowing that none will "look" on their own. They need to be "born again", they need a new heart and new eyes to see.
(BTW, the great Calvinist, C.H. Spurgeon, was converted when he heard Isaiah 45:22 read. He was able to "look" due to the fact that God had given him new eyes to see.)
So, on what basis does God either will or desire men to be saved or to be damned?
We say that He chooses in accordance with His will, according to His pleasure, and that He does so without regard for any merit on the part of the sinner. On what basis do you believe God wills or desires?
I would not say that God "desires" men to be damned. But some will be damned anyway.
We say that He chooses in accordance with His will, according to His pleasure,
That's just it. You think God is pleased to damn people. I think it grieves Him. Would it please you to spank your own children, even if they need it?
and that He does so without regard for any merit on the part of the sinner.
This all depends on if you think being "saved" is irrevocable. I agree that salvation is given without any merit on our part.
On what basis do you believe God wills or desires?
I have no idea. This is asking "what motivates God," and I can nto answer that. I don't know why He decided to Create and why He created what He did. But I am thankful.
SD
But, you had no difficulty stating that it is "obviously not" God's desire that all men be saved.
Of course, the source, God's Word, tells us exactly what motivates Him:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. - Ephesians 1:5,6
His motivation is to please Himself, and to garner praise.
But, you had no difficulty stating that it is "obviously not" God's desire that all men be saved.
I do not need to read God's mind on that issue. Jesus clearly teaches of men who will be damned. I believe Him. It's not a question of motivation, it's a question of fact.
His motivation is to please Himself, and to garner praise.
Sounds awful selfish to me. God wants praise and created a race of sycophants to tell Him how good He is?
SD
But, you had no difficulty stating that it is "obviously not" God's desire that all men be saved.
I do not need to read God's mind on that issue. Jesus clearly teaches of men who will be damned. I believe Him. It's not a question of motivation, it's a question of fact.
His motivation is to please Himself, and to garner praise.
Sounds awful selfish to me. God wants praise and created a race of sycophants to tell Him how good He is?
SD
Only because you attempt to judge God by your standards. If you were a perfect Being, what would be wrong with anything that brings praise to yourself?
Why the lie of Eden is preferred is no surprise to me Dave
"ye shall be as gods"
Man does not want to allow God to be GOD
I just posted this to someone else Dave. Just think about it
Most of us have been raised to worship at the altar of free will and choices
The fact is that all choices are made within a restricted set of circumstances
A man jumping off the empire state building can not exercise free will half way down.
Did you chose your sex? Did your chose your parents? Did you choose your country or city of birth? Did you chose your intelligence?
All of these things were predestined by your creator
He set up for you that parameters of the decisions and choices that will be available to you.
He could have had you born in India to Hindu parents in a low class. You never would have had an opportunity to go to school or to make the life choices you make today. You may never have heard the gospel to be saved.
All of our choices are governed by our preferences. Our preferences are part of that same creative process of the Father
Have you read the twin studies?
I read one that blew me away
Two brothers separated at birth. both had the same IQ, Both the same level of education, both loved firefighting (one was a professional and one a volunteer), both married women similar in appearance and both wives were named Jean. Both men had the same number of kids...and both drove red cars
Now these studies are done to show us the effects of genetics.
I know the designer of genetics. And His name is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. He is the great "I AM"
God has designed each of us in such a way that we will have preferences that will lead us to certain choices.
Because of the fall men will never seek God
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
In order for man to choose Christ he must have a preference for Christ. But the fall removed that preference. Man is spiritually dead.He can not choose life
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Note here that Jesus says a man cannot SEE the kingdom of God. Man can not desire or choose what he can not see
So God gives those that are His a New heart
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
God then gives us a heart that will desire Him.. A heart that can see Him and choose Him...
Our will was put in bondage in Eden. The will we have is the will of Adam. Only the new birth gives us a truly free will. The desire and the will to choose Christ
I find it so interesting that people resent the idea that God has foreordained our eternity. If our father so loved us to foreordain our present, how much more important is our eternity?
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