God failed?

[A.J.Armitage]

I went down to Boystown earlier today.

We were planning to go somewhere else, but we spent so much time getting sushi it was too late, so we went to The Alley instead. The Alley is, as the first line indicates, in Boystown, which is the Chicago gay district. There was parking in The Alley's alley, so we entered via the back door past stacks of free publications (gay and alternative newspapers and old copies of the Onion). The Alley is... different. It's basically a kind of all purpose store for punks, goths, and other people who're unique, just like everyone else they hang out with. It's got odd decorations, clothes, and so on.

One of the T-shirts had a picture of Anton LeVay, with the motto: GOD FAILED.

The shirt wasn't very unusual there; a large proportion of them were blasphemous. But that shirt, I think, is interesting. (Hence this post.)

I'd bet the person who made it never has never encountered anything other than Arminianism. And viewing things from the perspective of the Arminian construct, what other conclusion could there be?

In Arminianism, God had everything great until, whoops, the top angel started getting uppity and started a civil war in Heaven, which, presumably, God didn't want.

So then God creates two perfect people, but can't stop them from being corrupted by the former top angel. So, in spite of the fact that God doesn't want this to be the case, all their decendents turn out bad.

So in a last ditch effort, God personally becomes one and dies to save them all. But He doesn't save them all. He can't even manage to save most of them. His death was mostly just wasted. At the end, He'll be FORCED to throw them in the lake of fire. Assuming, of course, that Someone with His track record can manage to pull off something like making it all happen like it says in the book.

If you believe all that, how could God not be called a failure? If Arminianism is true, God's existence is one of constant frustration. Failure after failure after failure.

That's not my God, and it isn't the God of the Bible.

[SoothingDave]

If we are his sons and don't behave, He disciplines us! If my son disobeys, he is grounded not disinherited.

If my cat scratches the baby, I will get rid of the cat, not adopt him as one of the family.

We don't start out as "adopted sons of God."

SD

[Jerry_M]

"If their eating of the fruit was really His will, then He lied when He told them not to eat it."

Huh?

Doesn't seem to be applicable to what we are discussing, but I truly wonder: Is that the best you can do? (Seems to me that you have placed youreslef in an untenable situation.)

[CCWoody]

What is the problem?

If God does not will and desire their salvation, then why even offer it to them, except to show them how depraved they really are and let them store up for themselves wrath in the Day of Judgement?

• 1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
• 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Comments!

This is what giving us a true free will is all about, God refusing to impose His will upon us.

Have you ever read about Balaam or Jonah? Perhaps Jonah was just into the "Six flags" version of how to get to Nineveh.

Os, in that way I can say that God "wills," or perhaps "prefers" is a better word, that all men be saved. But He does not impose that will.

Is this your intrepretation of the above cited verses?

[SoothingDave]

Doesn't seem to be applicable to what we are discussing, but I truly wonder: Is that the best you can do? (Seems to me that you have placed youreslef in an untenable situation.)

I'm sorry you can't see my point. Shall I try again?

If Adam and Eve were not free, if God did not respect their freedom to act, then God must have willed everything that happened. So He tells them not to do somethign, then forces them to do it.

One lesson to be learned is that God tells us the opposite of what He really wants us to do. This is certainly untenable.

SD

[drstevej]

***We don't start out as "adopted sons of God."***

Says who? When then are we adopted, after a probationary period?

***If my cat scratches the baby, I will get rid of the cat, not adopt him as one of the family.***

You are confusing babies and cats. If your baby bites people, do you ship him out?

[SoothingDave]

If God does not will and desire their salvation, then why even offer it to them, except to show them how depraved they really are and let them store up for themselves wrath in the Day of Judgement?

I have no idea what you are trying to argue.

Comments!

Are you arguing from those Scriptures that God will save all men, because He wills it? I truly do not know where you are going.

Have you ever read about Balaam or Jonah? Perhaps Jonah was just into the "Six flags" version of how to get to Nineveh.

LOL. No. God can, in extraordinary circumstances impose His will, but he doesn't make a habit of it. You do understand the idea of miracles being extraordinary events where God reaches into His creation, right?

Os, in that way I can say that God "wills," or perhaps "prefers" is a better word, that all men be saved. But He does not impose that will.

Is this your intrepretation of the above cited verses?

Yep. It would have to be, or else I would be a universalist.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Says who? When then are we adopted, after a probationary period?

When we are sanctified and brought into Heaven, we will take our place as an adopted son of God.

You are confusing babies and cats. If your baby bites people, do you ship him out?

Rather you are confusing humans and God.

SD

[Jerry_M]

" God can, in extraordinary circumstances impose His will, but he doesn't make a habit of it."

Wow, I certainly am happy that He made an exception to the rule in my case!!

Without His intervening imposition of His will upon me, I would have never trusted Him. After all, I was "dead in my trespasses and sins", and hated Him with all my heart, wanting to place myself at the center of the universe.

[SoothingDave]

Wow, I certainly am happy that He made an exception to the rule in my case!!

I may have understated the case. I do not discount God intervening in situations like you describe, in life-altering ways. I do not, on the other hand, believe God desires and wills every single thing that occurs, nor do I develop a theology which is based upon this idea.

SD

[drstevej]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name.

This doesn't happen in heaven, it happens at the point of regeneration. The authority of sonship is conferred.

[RnMomof7]

Adam was the only man ever made (eve cohort) that had absollute free will , perfect free will...and they still could not chose to obey God

Dave do you believe that God was surprised by the decision of Adam to rebel?

[drstevej]

Arminians are convinced they could have done better than Adam in the Garden.

[BlackVeil]

"Read the Book of Job. The Voice from the Whirlwind says to Job who had been complaining about his unjust treatment by God: "Am I wrong because you are right?" Thank you for this reference. A wonderful text - glad that you gave this timely reminder.

[zadok]

Dave do you believe that God was surprised by the decision of Adam to rebel?

Bump!

[Pistias]

I was under the impression that "Logos" was the Greek for the quality of logic; thus one who "is" logic would be Logon (or is it Logoi? But I thought that's the plural...anyways)

If one is not, in himself, Omniscient... then how could one claim to know that God is "arbitrary" in His dispensations??

How then can one know that Grace is not referenced to any characteristic of the Object whatsoever. ? If there is no reason (whether or not we can see it) why He chooses one over another, then it is an arbitrary choice, i.e., without meaning other than His Will; if there is a reason, what reason could it be but something within the person which He sees as reaching for worthiness?

it certainly teaches that Man IS NOT the measure of all things.

"Seems like He made a pretty crappy thing in man; without help that makes his choices moot, all he's good for is kindling," would be my response if I were to press the matter. I fear I'm in danger of blasphemy, but that's what you get when you give your little creations reason, I suppose.

[Pistias]

Not at all, but you haven't been following the conversation, Becki. I'm exploring the ramifications of the idea that man as man is basically unable to reach for God in any way, and that the only way we can reach salvation is through His direct Grace, which is given out without regard to the state of the being to whom it is given.