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To: Don'tMessWithTexas
Are you saying that God chooses us because He looked down the corridor of time and saw that we would believe in Christ.

Absolutely. "Those he FOREKNEW, he predestined."

Your statement that I am in error is certainly testimony to your disagreement with me, but it hardly constitutes evidence that you are correct and I am wrong.

This thread lists far more scripture affirming resistible grace than it does scripture which purports to document irresistible grace.

I just responded to the John 6:37 verse. There is a simple explanation based on verses 40 and 45 that demonstrate how it, too, fits into a free choice perspective.

66 posted on 07/27/2002 4:05:31 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
I am generally quite charitable with Arminians such as yourself. Frankly, however, I am rather exasperated at your constant avoidance of the real issues raised in this discussion.

You claim that God looked down into time and predestined according to whether one would "accept" Jesus. That is all well and good to you because you say that you have scripture backing this up. But the Devil quoted scripture to Eve and Jesus. You are responsible for the all of the consequences which flow from your theology. And at every turn you refuse to accept those consequences.

For example, in your "gospel" God found something worthy in you, in particular your willingness to accept Him. (By the way, you add to the word of God by implying that God's foreknowledge included a determination that you would accept Christ. That is not to be found in the text) Therefore, you do not believe that you were ever really and truly DEAD in your trespasses and sins because you had the power to accept Jesus as your Savior. You have said that God looked down the corrridor of time and found something that merited your salvation. That means you have a predestination conditioned on your native ability and your supposed works of righteousness (your ability to accept and actual acceptance of Christ). And by virtue of this one righteous act, you were chosen in eternity past. In your gospel you want to share the credit for salvation. In doing so, you make an open affront to the atonement wrought by Jesus on the cross. You are stating quiet clearly that Jesus did not do enough to save you. You had to help Him out. Therefore, when Jesus cried out His last words on the cross and gave up the ghost, it really was not finished under your gospel because all that atoning work would be for naught without your consent.

It only follows that your gospel has a grace that can be resisted because you have an atonement that is incomplete without your consent.

In short, the consequences of your theology and your so-called gospel is sinners that are not really dead in their sins, men that are active agents in their salvation and thereby deserve it and a Christ that only partially saves because man contributes to it. That is a man-centered theology. A theology in which you dictate to God the terms of your salvation. A theology that elevates man to the level of God. It not surprising that at every turn you refuse to accept or deal with the logical consequences of it. The reason is clear: it is a gospel that cannot save and in your heart you know it and do not want to throw your soul at the feet of Jesus for mercy.

Many Arminians are inconsistent. They usually acknowledge that they were truly dead in their sins and that God did all the work in their salvation. You are consistent. And in your consistency is your peril. By so callously treating the atonement of Jesus, I must assume in this discussion that you are not a Christian.

68 posted on 07/27/2002 5:34:36 PM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
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To: xzins
Are you saying that God chooses us because He looked down the corridor of time and saw that we would believe in Christ.
Absolutely. "Those he forknew, he predestined."

Xzins why did God need to predestine those that had already chosen Him?

It would be like going to the polls today to vote for President Bush..when that was already a done deal

70 posted on 07/27/2002 8:35:20 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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