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To: xzins
I disagree that the guy says Arminians over-emphasize personal responsibility.

Is your salvation "contingent" upon anything other than belief?

Grace is free. It is not some "Star Wars" force, it is God's attitude toward us, "God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son." God has love toward every sinner despite their rebellion.

Salvation is contingent upon belief. "That whosoever believes in him..." That means it is open to everyone,

Salvation is impossible to lose, "Shall not perish but have evelasting life." If it is everlasting, then from the moment you "have" it, it is impossible to lose.

Now if there is anything "I" must do to keep that salvation, then I am responsible for my own salvation and Jesus death on the cross is meaningless. My enduring to the end is entirely the responsibility of the Holy Spirit.

A belief that someone can "lose" their salvation is clearly an overemphasis on the responsibility of man. If I am saved I WILL endure to the end. God does not need my help in getting me there. I did not die on the cross, so there's nothing I can do that will atone for any of my own sins, and if I am truly saved, then it is impossible for me to commit any sin for which God has not already forgiven me.

545 posted on 08/01/2002 6:42:31 AM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
***Salvation is impossible to lose, "Shall not perish but have evelasting life." If it is everlasting, then from the moment you "have" it, it is impossible to lose.***

Agreed. That's why Jesus called it ETERNAL life rather than CONDITIONAL life. Eternal Life is based upon His work FOR us not His work IN us.


547 posted on 08/01/2002 6:53:03 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: P-Marlowe
The bottom line is this: neither you nor I believe that "unbelievers" will be in heaven.

I'm content to say that I don't care if they're not there because they never truly believed in the first place, or if they're not there because they stopped believing. Either statement is fine with me.

It's the end result that I'm dealing with. There will be no unbelievers in heaven.

Do you believe there will be unbelievers in heaven? If not, then what about those who claimed to be believers and then recanted their belief? If I understand your position adequately, you will say that they were never truly believers. That's OK with me.

552 posted on 08/01/2002 7:45:38 AM PDT by xzins
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To: P-Marlowe; Jerry_M; OrthodoxPresbyterian; RnMomof7; drstevej; Jean Chauvin; Wrigley; Matchett-PI; ..

Grace is free. It is not some "Star Wars" force, it is God's attitude toward us, "God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son." God has love toward every sinner despite their rebellion.

Let me say that mercy is God's "attitude" toward some of us in the world. I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you say that "God has love toward every sinner" unless you mean that the common grace extends to every man alike. Nevertheless God does not love everyone:

Salvation is contingent upon belief. "That whosoever believes in him..." That means it is open to everyone,

con·tin·gent

n.

  1. An event or condition that is likely but not inevitable.

  2. A share or quota, as of troops, contributed to a general effort.

  3. A representative group forming part of an assemblage.

If you are going to maintain that the natural fallen man is likely to believe, then you are going to need to provide Biblical scriptures to back you up. Until then, I will maintain that "Salvation is of the Lord."

"We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth"; and the election which the Lord signified when He said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. ~ Bishop Saint Augustine of Hippo

Salvation is impossible to lose, "Shall not perish but have everlasting life." If it is everlasting, then from the moment you "have" it, it is impossible to lose.

Of course; "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

He has already PERFECTED FOREVER those who are being sanctified. And all the Calvinist will say of this: "Be comforted."

Now if there is anything "I" must do to keep that salvation, then I am responsible for my own salvation and Jesus death on the cross is meaningless. My enduring to the end is entirely the responsibility of the Holy Spirit.

He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things;....

... and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. Therefore, let us pursue the whole law of God not "as though it were by works," but "by faith." (Romans 9:32)

557 posted on 08/01/2002 8:43:45 AM PDT by CCWoody
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