Does God force you to believe or can you resist? Irresistible Grace -- Not a Bible Teaching.

http://www.zianet.com/maxey/Tulip6.htm ^ | Al Maxey

[drstevej]

***An example is drstevej, an honest Amyraldian. ***

Some other suggestions:

'Amicable Amyraldian' or
'Limited Attainment Calvinist' or
'Inconsistent Calvinist'?

Actually, I like restornu's term "Viper"

[Jerry_M]

Welcome to the "brood".

[drstevej]

LOL

[xzins]

The Dodge "Viper" is a pretty cool car.

You might wanna hang on to the viper title. :-0)

[P-Marlowe]

I disagree that the guy says Arminians over-emphasize personal responsibility.

Is your salvation "contingent" upon anything other than belief?

Grace is free. It is not some "Star Wars" force, it is God's attitude toward us, "God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son." God has love toward every sinner despite their rebellion.

Salvation is contingent upon belief. "That whosoever believes in him..." That means it is open to everyone,

Salvation is impossible to lose, "Shall not perish but have evelasting life." If it is everlasting, then from the moment you "have" it, it is impossible to lose.

Now if there is anything "I" must do to keep that salvation, then I am responsible for my own salvation and Jesus death on the cross is meaningless. My enduring to the end is entirely the responsibility of the Holy Spirit.

A belief that someone can "lose" their salvation is clearly an overemphasis on the responsibility of man. If I am saved I WILL endure to the end. God does not need my help in getting me there. I did not die on the cross, so there's nothing I can do that will atone for any of my own sins, and if I am truly saved, then it is impossible for me to commit any sin for which God has not already forgiven me.

[restornu]

Now there are indefinite interval of time, that Steve is tempted by a mischievous Imp! For out of the blue he comes at you with these most scathing thoughts. Should he be standing near by, one would want to shower him with a bucket of icy Cold water!

[drstevej]

***Salvation is impossible to lose, "Shall not perish but have evelasting life." If it is everlasting, then from the moment you "have" it, it is impossible to lose.***

Agreed. That's why Jesus called it ETERNAL life rather than CONDITIONAL life. Eternal Life is based upon His work FOR us not His work IN us.

[drstevej]

***For out of the blue he comes at you with these most scathing thoughts. Should he be standing near by, one would want to shower him with a bucket of icy Cold water! ***

Not sure I understand your post, but given the heat and humidity in Baton Rouge... the ice water dousing would be mighty welcome! (Could we consider it a proxy baptism for rnmom?)

Thanks for the thoughtfulness.

[restornu]

Salvation is not the hard part, it the long term residency?:)

Like how many degrees if seperation, though it seem like hell, its really not!

[P-Marlowe]

Agreed.

Uh Oh. What will the Arminians think of me now?
_{You're not straddling this fence with me are you Steve?"}

[drstevej]

***What will the Arminians think of me now?***

Most Arminians want to reserve the right for believers to jump ship.

You and I, I believe, are agreed that all those whom God justifies (declares righteous) are ultimately glorified. No shrinkage!

[xzins]

The bottom line is this: neither you nor I believe that "unbelievers" will be in heaven.

I'm content to say that I don't care if they're not there because they never truly believed in the first place, or if they're not there because they stopped believing. Either statement is fine with me.

It's the end result that I'm dealing with. There will be no unbelievers in heaven.

Do you believe there will be unbelievers in heaven? If not, then what about those who claimed to be believers and then recanted their belief? If I understand your position adequately, you will say that they were never truly believers. That's OK with me.

[drstevej]

There is a world of difference between concluding:

A. They were beleivers and stopped being believers
and
B. They never were believers.

The end result of A & B may be the same, but A implies that regeneration is reversible, justification is revokable and eternal life is probationary. All of these are non trivial conclusions.

If I understand P-M correctly, he and I agree in opposition to your position. That there are no non-believers in heaven is true, but masks the flaw in your position.

[Jean Chauvin]

"Well it is good that you have come out of your shell. I used to worry about you:>)"

Just as long as he doesn't 'come out of the closet', I won't worry about him either!

Jean

[xzins]

If I understand P-M correctly, he and I agree in opposition to your position. That there are no non-believers in heaven is true, but masks the flaw in your position.

Hardly, because the issue in my post was those who had claimed to be believers and had then recanted.

That we agree there will be no unbelievers in heaven is extremely significant. My view is Arminius' view that is that we shouldn't be so sure of how we discount verses that appear to indicate loss of salvation. The view is that we should counsel people to be steadfast because that is the best advice.

[P-Marlowe]

It is all academic. The big question is not whether or not there will be any non-believers in heaven. I think everyone will agree that there will not. The big question is whether or not there will be any believers in hell.

I cannot fathom that anyone who meets the contingency of John 3:16 can possibly end up in hell. If "eternal" life is revokable, then eternal punishment would likewise be revokable. If "Eternal" Punsishment is revokable then there was never any need for the cross.

Eternal means Eternal. Never-ending, irrevocable. What other definitions can there be?

[CCWoody]

Grace is free. It is not some "Star Wars" force, it is God's attitude toward us, "God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son." God has love toward every sinner despite their rebellion.

Let me say that mercy is God's "attitude" toward some of us in the world. I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you say that "God has love toward every sinner" unless you mean that the common grace extends to every man alike. Nevertheless God does not love everyone:

• Pro 11:20 They that are of a froward heart [are] abomination to the LORD: but [such as are] upright in [their] way [are] his delight.

• Pro 16:5 Every one [that is] proud in heart [is] an abomination to the LORD: [though] hand [join] in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

• Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Salvation is contingent upon belief. "That whosoever believes in him..." That means it is open to everyone,

con·tin·gent

n.

1. An event or condition that is likely but not inevitable.

2. A share or quota, as of troops, contributed to a general effort.

3. A representative group forming part of an assemblage.

If you are going to maintain that the natural fallen man is likely to believe, then you are going to need to provide Biblical scriptures to back you up. Until then, I will maintain that "Salvation is of the Lord."

"We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth"; and the election which the Lord signified when He said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. ~ Bishop Saint Augustine of Hippo

Salvation is impossible to lose, "Shall not perish but have everlasting life." If it is everlasting, then from the moment you "have" it, it is impossible to lose.

Of course; "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

• 1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto... that ye may know that ye have eternal life,....

He has already PERFECTED FOREVER those who are being sanctified. And all the Calvinist will say of this: "Be comforted."

Now if there is anything "I" must do to keep that salvation, then I am responsible for my own salvation and Jesus death on the cross is meaningless. My enduring to the end is entirely the responsibility of the Holy Spirit.

He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things;....

• Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

... and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe. Therefore, let us pursue the whole law of God not "as though it were by works," but "by faith." (Romans 9:32)

[Wrigley]

Now, Jean, you don't have to worry about that, I assure you.

[CCWoody]

The big question is whether or not there will be any believers in hell.

The very statement is predicated upon the false notion that the natural fallen man has any desire to believe. If you are going to maintain such a position, then you are going to need to provide Biblical scriptures to back you up. Until then, I will maintain that "Salvation is of the Lord."

[Jean Chauvin]

I know, it was just a joke. I know you well enough to 'know'.

I guess I forgot to put a little 'smiley face' on it.

Sorry to cause any confusion.

Jean