Does God force you to believe or can you resist? Irresistible Grace -- Not a Bible Teaching.

According to the Canons of Dordt (Third & Fourth Heads of Doctrine -- Article 11), "But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions."

Article 12 states: "And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture ... which God works in us without our aid. It is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable. All in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe."

Article 22 of The Belgic Confession states: "We believe that, to attain a true knowledge of this great mystery, the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts an upright faith, which embraces Jesus Christ with all His merits, appropriates Him, and seeks nothing more besides Him."

John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, writes that God "has given the true knowledge of Himself in an internal manner, by the illumination of His Spirit, without the intervention of any preaching."

Calvinism teaches that those who are not of the elect "cannot believe, even though he hears the external preaching of the Word and perhaps reads it for himself many times!" In the elect, however, "the Holy Spirit works IRRESISTIBLY, regenerating him so that he understands fully that he is a sinner and needs God, and, therefore, wants to be saved and to believe" (Dr. Edwin H. Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 48).

"Thus, the once dead sinner is drawn to Christ by the inward supernatural call of the Spirit who through regeneration makes him alive and creates within him faith and repentance. The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners, but it is issued to the elect only! The Spirit is in no way dependent upon their help or cooperation for success in His work of bringing them to Christ. It is for this reason that Calvinists speak of the Spirit's call and of God's grace in saving sinners as being 'efficacious,' 'invincible,' or 'irresistible.' For the grace which the Holy Spirit extends to the elect cannot be thwarted or refused, it never fails to bring them to true faith in Christ!" (Steele & Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 49).

Is Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace a valid teaching in light of God's Word? Let us again ask some important questions and seek their answer from the inspired Scriptures.

This doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit gives faith to the elect even before they have heard the gospel. Indeed, it maintains one cannot either understand or accept the gospel unless he has first been given faith to do so. Is faith something imposed irresistibly upon the elect, or does it come from hearing and accepting the Word of God?

Romans 10:17 ..... "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." "But many of those who had heard the word believed" (Acts 4:4).

John 20:30-31 ..... "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

John 17:20 ..... "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word." "Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household" (Acts 11:13-14).

Acts 18:4, 8 ..... "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. And Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized."

James 1:18, 21 ..... "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth .... Therefore, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (I Corinthians 15:1-2).

Romans 1:16 ..... "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Luke 8:11, 15 ..... (The Parable of the Sower) --- "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

I Corinthians 1:21 ..... "God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace teaches that you cannot resist the grace of God, nor can you resist His Spirit. What does the Bible say? (Can you resist the grace of God and can you resist the Holy Spirit?)

Revelation 3:20 ..... "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me." The Holy Spirit is a gentleman! He knocks at the door of your heart, he doesn't kick it down! Man has the choice to hear and open, or to refuse Him entrance.

Matthew 23:37 ..... "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ... How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

II Timothy 3:8 ..... "And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose (resist) the truth." "Thou didst bear with them for many years, and admonished them by Thy Spirit through Thy prophets, yet they would not give ear" (Nehemiah 9:30). "The angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, and fought against them" (Isaiah 63:9-10).

Acts 7:51 ..... "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did." "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30). "Do not quench the Spirit" (I Thessalonians 5:19).

Does God give His Holy Spirit to the elect before they have heard, believed and accepted the gospel (as Calvinism teaches), or does He bestow His Spirit only upon those who have accepted Christ?

John 14:17 ..... Jesus promises to send to His disciples "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him."

John 7:38-39 ..... "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' This He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive."

Acts 2:38 ..... "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." "God has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32). Peter says that the Gentiles received the same gift (the Holy Spirit) as the Jews did, "after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 11:17).

Galatians 4:6 ..... "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'"

Ephesians 1:13-14 ..... "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance."

Galatians 3:2 ..... "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"

Galatians 3:13-14 ..... "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree' -- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Calvinists would say that we receive faith through the Spirit; God's Word says we receive the Spirit through faith! Nowhere in the Word of God does it teach that the Holy Spirit directly, miraculously, and irresistibly opens and enters the hearts of unbelieving and unrepentant sinners and regenerates them against their will.

"The doctrine of the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of man, sometimes referred to as 'special' or 'saving' or 'irresistible' grace; teaching that man is inherently depraved and cannot respond to the gospel without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit; is man's doctrine, not Bible doctrine. If the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit is true, then the logical implication is that the Word of God is insufficient in the conversion of the sinner. If the doctrine of Irresistible Grace is true, then it places the responsibility of salvation entirely upon God and destroys the responsibility of man to act. If Irresistible Grace is truly 'irresistible,' it destroys the 'free moral agency' of man" (David Gibson, Calvin's TULIP Theology).

Some things in Scripture are ambiguous enough that good Bible believing children of God can disagree, but about the fact that Jesus was God in the flesh, there can be no disagreement.

Thanks for your response. Of course I hold that Jesus is God. As you pointed out it would be meaningless to believe in a saviour that was not God. In fact, I recently found out that a nieghbor of mine is under 'their' influence. Your biblical passages will help in my discussions with him.

What was interesting was that the post of yours that I quoted you on sounded strikingly the same as what my nieghbor said. Here is the point I am trying to make. We deduce from scripture that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are all distinct persons, and all are God, yet there is only one God. The bible does not explicitly state this yet we hold this to be true and a crucial doctrine of Christianity. If we hold the Trinity to be crucial, derived based on logical deduction, isn't it logical that we can derive other important doctrines deduced from scripture? So when you say:

Many who become very shrill in their defense of their, "doctrine," are only afraid to admit they might have been wrong in accepting human teaching. I never insist that any accept my interpretation of Scripture, because I do not judge another's servant.

Yet you hold to a 'human teaching' developed at the council of Nicene. You understand how important it is to hold a belief that is not explicitly taught in scripture. You 'insist' that one must believe in 3 persons in one God to be saved.

Here is my question. If we hold that belief in the Trinity, a non-explicit teaching, is crucial for belief are there other beliefs that are crucial that are non-explicitly taught in the bible? How do we determine which beliefs are crucial and non-crucial? What is the dividing line between subjective beliefs and objective beliefs? At what point should we allow 'private interpretations' to trump church doctrines?

You do not use the word trinity do you believe that God the Father was Jesus in the flesh?

Look at what you asked? There is your answer. Your problem is you are so busy looking at the complexities and added concepts of men you miss the simple truth.

"You do not use the word Trinity." (Correct. It is unscriptural. I do capitalize it though, because others beleive it is true, and it is grammatically correct.)

"Do you believe that God the Father was Jesus in the flesh?" I believe the question is badly worded. If the expression "God the Father" and the expression "Jesus in the Flesh" were synonymous, they could be interchanged without changing the meaning in any sentence in which they were used. This is obviously not correct, so, in that sense neither you or I believe God the Father was Jesus in the flesh.

I believe in one God. I believe when God is creating the world, when being prayed to and answering prayer, when audibly making Himself heard by men saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear ye Him," that is God the Father. When that same God miraculously impregnates a young Jewish virgin, when that same God comes down from heaven in the form of a dove, when the same God moves 11 men to preach with power and bring a mighty revival on the day of Pentecost, that is God the Holy Spirit. When that Jewish virgin gives birth to the Savior of mankind, that little baby is God in the Flesh, the very same God that is God the Father and God the Holy Ghost.

How can God be God the Father in Heaven, God the Holy Ghost moving, empowering, and dwelling in individual men, and the Incarnate Son of God all at the same time? I do not know, no man knows, and the invention of the word Trinity, and the addition of the word "persons," does not make it one bit more understandable, but requires us to believe something in addition to what the Scriptures teach.

(One Trinitarian insisted the incarnation was no mystery to trinitarians, which of course makes them a lot more knowledgeable than Paul, who considers it a great mystery: 1 Tim. 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." As I pointed out to him, the addition of the words Trinity and "persons" does not clear the mystery up one bit, but adds additional confusion.)

Let me say this. If the words Trinity and "persons" do not add any new or additional ideas to what is already taught in Scripture, they are not needed, since we already have God's Word, which is sufficient. If these words do add new or additional ideas to what is already taught in Scripture, they are heresy.

I do not believe most people who use these words are heretics, at all, and I believe they intend by them what they believe the Scriptures teach. I do believe there is a tendency to "mystify" and make something "superstitious" about our understanding of God by the use of those terms, that the word "persons," can be very confusing, causing people to picture God as a committee or mini-pantheon of three gods, and I know calling someone a heretic for refusing to use extra-biblical terms is tantamount to calling someone a heretic for not believing what the Pope teaches.

I have no objection to others using the word person with regard to God, although, in the Bible the word person is used only three times in relationship to God, (2 Co 2:10, Heb 1:3 Job 13:8), never is it used to distinguish God the Father from God the Son or God the Holy Spirit, and in the Hebrews reference it is used to indicate they are the same or identical person.

By the way, I do not believe we need to "explain divine personality," nor do I believe we should. I believe it is an intrusion into things which God has chosen not to reveal, and has lead to formulas and conjectures that are probably not true. (Col. 2:18)

That is what I believe. I'll stand on the Word of God. You may prefer concepts and expressions of men and councils of men, only remember it was a council of men that crucified our Lord.

(Note: Much of the confusion about the nature of God is not because God has failed to make it as clear as necessary for us to understand all we need to understand to serve and worship Him, and we really do not need to know any more than that, but because we attempt to impose concepts of material existense on the spiritual or eternal. "God is a spirit..." Jesus said. Now, the expression, "separate but equal," is an example of what I mean. How can God be separate? I God is everywhere, where can God the Holy Spirit be that God the Father is not? So, what does it mean to say "separate" when referring to God? We cannot mean separate geographically, we cannot mean separate in time, we cannot mean separate in power, or purpose. Then what. The only separations we know for certain is the Jesus is a man, born of a Virgin, no ascende into heaven. We also know that Jesus was "with the Father" for all eternity, even before the incarnation. How? That's what we cannot know, and all the conjecture and explanations have only caused trouble, because we cannot know these things, nor do we need to. God's grace and God's revelation are sufficient. We ought to study and know all we can about what has been revealed. Some things are, "secret," those we have no business knowing. (Deut. 29:29)

Hank (Over time I believe I have answered every question possible about my views of the Scriptural teaching about the nature of God respecting the man-made doctrine of the Trinity. If anyone is interested, I will post an edited version of these answers all in one place, or I can create a WEB page with the same material.) Hank, again.

Rev knows it has been his pattern for weeks ..come in pick a fight and get a thread locked..

BS - You ARE a LIAR - I made one comment and you and everyone else went ballistic about guns - you included.

And then there was AJ - you remember - he wanted to *itch slap arminians - when I complained he called us "retarded" - Yep, I sure been focusing on making your life miserable (sarcasm)- so call me a "moral midget", "heathen", "worshipping a lesser god", "humanist", "universalist", "handicapped" - whatever you like - because as you said, "I stumble".

Lady, you dont stumble -youve fallen, you wallow in your pomposity, lifting nothing but your twisted notion of Christianity while at the same time DRIVING anybody you contact from the same. Now knock off the woe is me game and treat people like you want to be treated instead of sharking the threads, berating those that disagree with you with smug retorts and a hopelessly misplaced sense of duty.

Over the last week Ive read your old posts - you seemed happier then - Has calvinism really enriched your life - because from where we stand, you sound miserable.

You are definitely a point of prayer this week

Yet you hold to a 'human teaching' developed at the council of Nicene.

I don't! I hope my post 434 will address this for you.

This is an excellent question and illustrates exactly why our beliefs should be based exclusively on the Word of God, and not on the teachings of any men. The Bible makes it very clear, everything we need is supplied in the Word.

2 Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

We do not need the teachings of men.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

There is only one thing you really need to know what you must and must not believe. You must study God's Word, and ask God to show you the truth. There is nothing wrong with consulting other good men or asking their help in understanding, and God often uses others to teach us things we might not learn, figure out, or understand on our own, but always, we must go back to the Word of God, and check what we have been taught against what God has clearly revealed. Only when we see it is clearly what the Bible teaches should we embrace it. We may still make mistakes, but so long as we keep studying God's Word, and do not trust the word of man against the Word of God, God will not let us get too far of the track, I believe.

If you are really willing to do God's will, He will reveal the truth to you:

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Jas. 1:5-8 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

God always keeps His promises, but in this case there is a condition. The person who asks for wisdom, who really wants to know God's will, must ask in faith. Here James is emphasizing the "faithfulness" part of faith, as opposed to the "belief" part. Only a person who sincerely intends to believe and obey God's will need bother asking God to reveal it to him. It is never, "God please show me your will so I can decide if I want to do it or not." One has to be determined to do God's will to expect God to reveal it to him, and this inludes what God would have us believe.

Hope this helps!

Hank

An interesting passage.

Here are some more interesting passages along the same line: While the truth of God being three, God the Father, God the Son (Word), and God the Holy Spirit, is very important (1 Jo 5:7), the emphasis in the Bible is on that fact that there is one God and these three are one.

For example, almost everything that men are apt to attribute to one of these three, the Bible actually clearly attributes to others as well. Here are some examples:

The Resurrection is attributed to God (most often) but also to Jesus himself, and to the Spirit as well.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. (An many others.)

John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Rom. 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Creation attributed to Father and Son

Isaiah 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Acts 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col. 1:12-17 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Answered prayer attributed to Father and Son

Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Joh 16:23 ¶ And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

God, Spirit, Christ all Indwell

1 Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Pet. 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Johh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

1 John 4:15-16 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Now you can also check out all the places forgiveness of sin, preservation of the saved, salvation, and many more things are attibuted to both the Father and the Son.

And notice this amazing verse in First John:

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

(I know "he" is not in the original, but is implied in the verb.) My only point is that our attempt to fit our understanding of God into some neat package designed by men, even sincere and devout men, is not likely to be successful. Can we truly understand the nature of our God? Yes we can understand all He requires us to understand, which is all that His Word has revealed to us, and no, if to fully understand means to know even those things He has chosen not to reveal.

See post 434.

Hank

But repentance and remorse know how to make use of time in fear and trembling. When remorse awakens concern, whether it be in the youth, or in the old man, it awakens it always at the eleventh hour. It does not have much time at its disposal, for it is at the eleventh hour. It is not deceived by a false notion of a long life, for it is at the eleventh hour. And in the eleventh hour one understands life in a wholly different way than in the days of youth or in the busy time of manhood or in the final moment of old age. He who repents at any other hour of the day repents in the temporal sense. He fortifies himself by a false and hasty conception of the insignificance of his guilt. He braces himself with a false and hasty notion of life's length. His remorse is not in true inwardness of spirit. Oh, eleventh hour, wherever thou art present, how all is changed! How still everything is, as if it were the midnight hour; how sober, as if it were the hour of death; how lonely, as if it were among the tombs; how solemn, as if it were within eternity. Oh, heavy hour of labor, {although labor is at rest}, when the account is rendered, yet there is no accuser there; when all is called by its own name, yet there is nothing said; when each improper word must be repeated, in the light of eternity! Oh, costly bargain, where remorse must pay so dearly for what seemed in the eyes of lightheartedness and busyness and proud struggling and impatient passion and the judgement of the world to be reckoned as nothing! Oh, eleventh hour, how terrible if Thou shouldst remain, how much more terrible than if death should continue through a whole life!

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