Posted on 07/25/2002 7:23:40 AM PDT by xzins
THE WRONG TEACHINGS OF MAN
According to the Canons of Dordt (Third & Fourth Heads of Doctrine -- Article 11), "But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions."
Article 12 states: "And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture ... which God works in us without our aid. It is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable. All in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe."
Article 22 of The Belgic Confession states: "We believe that, to attain a true knowledge of this great mystery, the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts an upright faith, which embraces Jesus Christ with all His merits, appropriates Him, and seeks nothing more besides Him."
John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, writes that God "has given the true knowledge of Himself in an internal manner, by the illumination of His Spirit, without the intervention of any preaching."
Calvinism teaches that those who are not of the elect "cannot believe, even though he hears the external preaching of the Word and perhaps reads it for himself many times!" In the elect, however, "the Holy Spirit works IRRESISTIBLY, regenerating him so that he understands fully that he is a sinner and needs God, and, therefore, wants to be saved and to believe" (Dr. Edwin H. Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 48).
"Thus, the once dead sinner is drawn to Christ by the inward supernatural call of the Spirit who through regeneration makes him alive and creates within him faith and repentance. The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners, but it is issued to the elect only! The Spirit is in no way dependent upon their help or cooperation for success in His work of bringing them to Christ. It is for this reason that Calvinists speak of the Spirit's call and of God's grace in saving sinners as being 'efficacious,' 'invincible,' or 'irresistible.' For the grace which the Holy Spirit extends to the elect cannot be thwarted or refused, it never fails to bring them to true faith in Christ!" (Steele & Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 49).
VERSUS THE HOLY TEACHINGS OF GOD
Is Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace a valid teaching in light of God's Word? Let us again ask some important questions and seek their answer from the inspired Scriptures.
QUESTION
This doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit gives faith to the elect even before they have heard the gospel. Indeed, it maintains one cannot either understand or accept the gospel unless he has first been given faith to do so. Is faith something imposed irresistibly upon the elect, or does it come from hearing and accepting the Word of God?
Romans 10:17 ..... "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." "But many of those who had heard the word believed" (Acts 4:4).
John 20:30-31 ..... "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."
John 17:20 ..... "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word." "Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household" (Acts 11:13-14).
Acts 18:4, 8 ..... "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. And Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized."
James 1:18, 21 ..... "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth .... Therefore, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (I Corinthians 15:1-2).
Romans 1:16 ..... "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
Luke 8:11, 15 ..... (The Parable of the Sower) --- "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."
I Corinthians 1:21 ..... "God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."
QUESTION
Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace teaches that you cannot resist the grace of God, nor can you resist His Spirit. What does the Bible say? (Can you resist the grace of God and can you resist the Holy Spirit?)
Revelation 3:20 ..... "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me." The Holy Spirit is a gentleman! He knocks at the door of your heart, he doesn't kick it down! Man has the choice to hear and open, or to refuse Him entrance.
Matthew 23:37 ..... "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ... How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."
II Timothy 3:8 ..... "And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose (resist) the truth." "Thou didst bear with them for many years, and admonished them by Thy Spirit through Thy prophets, yet they would not give ear" (Nehemiah 9:30). "The angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, and fought against them" (Isaiah 63:9-10).
Acts 7:51 ..... "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did." "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30). "Do not quench the Spirit" (I Thessalonians 5:19).
QUESTION
Does God give His Holy Spirit to the elect before they have heard, believed and accepted the gospel (as Calvinism teaches), or does He bestow His Spirit only upon those who have accepted Christ?
John 14:17 ..... Jesus promises to send to His disciples "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him."
John 7:38-39 ..... "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' This He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive."
Acts 2:38 ..... "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." "God has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32). Peter says that the Gentiles received the same gift (the Holy Spirit) as the Jews did, "after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 11:17).
Galatians 4:6 ..... "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'"
Ephesians 1:13-14 ..... "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance."
Galatians 3:2 ..... "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"
Galatians 3:13-14 ..... "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree' -- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Calvinists would say that we receive faith through the Spirit; God's Word says we receive the Spirit through faith! Nowhere in the Word of God does it teach that the Holy Spirit directly, miraculously, and irresistibly opens and enters the hearts of unbelieving and unrepentant sinners and regenerates them against their will.
"The doctrine of the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of man, sometimes referred to as 'special' or 'saving' or 'irresistible' grace; teaching that man is inherently depraved and cannot respond to the gospel without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit; is man's doctrine, not Bible doctrine. If the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit is true, then the logical implication is that the Word of God is insufficient in the conversion of the sinner. If the doctrine of Irresistible Grace is true, then it places the responsibility of salvation entirely upon God and destroys the responsibility of man to act. If Irresistible Grace is truly 'irresistible,' it destroys the 'free moral agency' of man" (David Gibson, Calvin's TULIP Theology).
Is it more comforting to know that God doesn't care enough to protect and preserve your child? Is it more comforting to know God could care less about you or your future here or your eternity ?
You are working backward barrister..you are working from the result to the cause..
I say we need to look at the cause first..then the result makes sense
The cause of our creation was to glorify and magnify God now and in eternity.
Time was created for man , not man for time...Time (our life spans) were created as a measure to keep order here...not because they have any eternal meaning. You and I have already begun our eternal existance. We are simply living some of it here.
So if man purpose is to enjoy God and glorify him forever..and if time is meaningless to our eternal God...and if our eternity has already begun here ..what is death to God?
When we have our theology center on man we have the why would God do this to me mentality.
If we see God as sovereign and we see He has a master plan and the world is not simply spinning out of His control. We can then see that not one thing that happens is not a part of that plan..every single thing has purpose and meaning. There are no accidents in God.
As believes we can take comfort in the words of Paul Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
God is Sovereign
I grew up in a Christian family. I attended church twice on Sundays about 90% of the time. I attended a private Christian school and a private Christian college. All my life I learned the Reformed faith. I had my 'saving' moment in high school, when it mostly came all togather. I made my profession of faith before the elders of my church and later before the congregation. I meant it then and I believed I understood what it all meant.
It wasn't until my senior year at Calvin College that it finally all made complete sense. And it came at what was the worst time in my life. One of my roommates was killed in a motorcycle accident. He was a friend I knew from my freshman year and who I lived with for 3 years. We had our disagreements, but we were like brothers.
I had never felt that much spirtual and emotional pain before. But during that whole period, from learning that he died, to meeting with his parents that night, to dealing with our friends. Then thru the funeral and the emotional memorial service we as friends and students held. It was a terrible period. It hit me what a powerful thing it is that God was in control. Through that pain I saw the comfort of my salvation. I saw that in how Matt's parents handled and expressed themselves. I saw it in how friends came through. I saw it in when my parents came up for the funeral, something I didn't know they were going to do. Finally in the sermon another good friend's father gave at the memorial service.
In all of that, I can honestly say what a awesome God we have. At that point, everything was well with my soul.
You see that is what I am talking about right there. If Arminainism is a false gospel, then how is it that so many Calvinists were saved at the preaching of an Arminian? Did these Calvinists accept a false Gospel? If they did, then they were never saved, were they?
So if Arminianism is the Lie of Eden, then why don't you just come out and say that Arminians are not Christians? Why continue to allow them to make a false claim that they are saved, when if fact they, like Eve, are only deceived?
In other words: Put up or Shut up.
I thought those were your words.
I believe it is called a peace that passes all understanding..Phl 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Often when Children are raised in the church the exact moment of their salvation is lost in the years...but there is a moment in time when you suddenly meet God and you know that you know
My son was 7 when he ran into the arms of Christ
He has no conscious memeory of it (I do:>) But two years ago the grace of God so overwhelmed him that he was literally knocked to his knees ..Now as an adult He has the assurance of his faith..He knows that he knows :>)
Again Mom, this is what I have been talking about. Somebody says something and then somebody else rephrases it to mean something wholly different than what that person said. Did I say that God could care less about you? NO! I didn't. Did I ever say that God is not in control? No.
Why don't you just read what I said and if you disagree with what I said, then post your own comment. Please don't rephrase what I said to mean something I didn't say. That is dishonest. That is what is wrong with these threads.
So now that I've caught your attention, why don't you give me a straight answer to my previous question that I have asked you several times:
Since you believe that Arminians can preach people to salvation and that most Calvinists were saved as Arminians and that "it does not matter one bit if you were saved as an Arminian or a Calvinist.." Please. Please. Please. IN YOUR OWN WORDS, Please tell me:
Which purpose of God is being accomplished by all of this bickering?
Mothers always do. ;-)
Hank you ask a marvelous question. Let's see if anyone can answer using the evidence of the bible alone. After all, there is no evidence that he ever repented but he was so beloved of God where is he?
you said
Is it more comforting to know that God wanted your child dead and that it pleased God to kill her, or to know that God simply chose not intervene to save her?
Your bias is in your own words..get the log out marlowe..you came looking for a fight
Your favorite phrase. Hey, why don't you just answer a question instead of attributing evil motives to it? Can you answer this question:
Is it more comforting to know that God wanted your child dead and that it pleased God to kill her, or to know that God simply chose not intervene to save her?
Honestly can you answer it? To me I think the answer is obvious. I take much more comfort thinking that God allowed some drunk to accidentally kill my child and that somehow this will ultimately work out for good than that God actually wanted that drunk to kill my child and that he made it happen according to the good pleasure of his will.
If God is in control the way that some people think he is in control, then it is clear that it pleases God when children are killed by drunk drivers and that God not only permits the accident, but ultimately is the cause of it.
To me God is in control inasmuch as whatever happens has been ordained by God, but not necessarily caused by God. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but it happens all the time, doesn't it? If he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, then does he take pleasure in the death of the godly? And, if he doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked or the death of the godly then how can it possibly occur?
It seems to me as of late you have come in looking for a fight (usually with me) .
So excuse me if I find humor in your complaint of bickering a little disingenuous.
I asked you why you were so angry, you chose to deflect. You are very angry with me. You see me as a traitor. So you come a calling.
Marlowe I am not angry with you. I like you and appreciate allot of your threads. I appreciate your spiritual journey. But remember that the journey is not over till it is over, often God has more of Himself to reveal to us in our walk
I am offering you personal peace here. We can disagree on doctrine and even take swipes and still not be enemies.
This discussion of death is a personal one for me. I have buried unsaved parents and aunts and uncles. I have cohort cousins that are dead, and I buried an infant grandson
you ask
Is it more comforting to know that God wanted your child dead and that it pleased God to kill her, or to know that God simply chose not intervenes to save her?
Honestly can you answer it? To me I think the answer is obvious. I take much more comfort thinking that God allowed some drunk to accidentally kill my child and that somehow this will ultimately work out for good than that God actually wanted that drunk to kill my child and that he made it happen according to the good pleasure of his will.
You are more comforted by the thought that God did not care enough to protect your child than to believe He has a divine plan that includes every single one of us?
Ecc 3:1 To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up [that which is] planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Read Job. A man of many troubles. A man quoted by my son as he wept held his grieving wife and dead son in his arms
Job 13:15 though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.
Job 14:1 Man [that is] born of a woman [is] of few days, and full of trouble.
2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
3 And dost thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
4 Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one.
5 Seeing his days [are] determined, the number of his months [are] with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
The problem Marlowe is you would rather believe what you want to believe. You want to fashion a god for your own liking. You do not like the God of the bible
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
We believe that Nathan drown because he did not understand the solar cover. He just walked off the patio into the pool thinking he was still on firm ground (He had a pond on his property at home so he knew water ...so the solar cover confused him we believe) the word of God comforts and loves
Psa 37:23 The steps of a [good] man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
The Lord of creation orders all of our steps..He called Nate home that day. It was not a punishment for Nate..or his mom. it was not his moms fault that he wandered out...he had simply come to the end of the days God had numbered for him. Soon that will happen to me. And someday to you
That is not a cruel heartless God. That is the God of creation that cares enough to know every hair on my head.
Marlowe if you want a distant hands off god......you may build one. The God of the Bible is personally involved in our lives ..I am comforted by that
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