Does God force you to believe or can you resist? Irresistible Grace -- Not a Bible Teaching.

According to the Canons of Dordt (Third & Fourth Heads of Doctrine -- Article 11), "But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions."

Article 12 states: "And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture ... which God works in us without our aid. It is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable. All in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe."

Article 22 of The Belgic Confession states: "We believe that, to attain a true knowledge of this great mystery, the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts an upright faith, which embraces Jesus Christ with all His merits, appropriates Him, and seeks nothing more besides Him."

John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, writes that God "has given the true knowledge of Himself in an internal manner, by the illumination of His Spirit, without the intervention of any preaching."

Calvinism teaches that those who are not of the elect "cannot believe, even though he hears the external preaching of the Word and perhaps reads it for himself many times!" In the elect, however, "the Holy Spirit works IRRESISTIBLY, regenerating him so that he understands fully that he is a sinner and needs God, and, therefore, wants to be saved and to believe" (Dr. Edwin H. Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 48).

"Thus, the once dead sinner is drawn to Christ by the inward supernatural call of the Spirit who through regeneration makes him alive and creates within him faith and repentance. The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners, but it is issued to the elect only! The Spirit is in no way dependent upon their help or cooperation for success in His work of bringing them to Christ. It is for this reason that Calvinists speak of the Spirit's call and of God's grace in saving sinners as being 'efficacious,' 'invincible,' or 'irresistible.' For the grace which the Holy Spirit extends to the elect cannot be thwarted or refused, it never fails to bring them to true faith in Christ!" (Steele & Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 49).

Is Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace a valid teaching in light of God's Word? Let us again ask some important questions and seek their answer from the inspired Scriptures.

This doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit gives faith to the elect even before they have heard the gospel. Indeed, it maintains one cannot either understand or accept the gospel unless he has first been given faith to do so. Is faith something imposed irresistibly upon the elect, or does it come from hearing and accepting the Word of God?

Romans 10:17 ..... "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." "But many of those who had heard the word believed" (Acts 4:4).

John 20:30-31 ..... "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

John 17:20 ..... "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word." "Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household" (Acts 11:13-14).

Acts 18:4, 8 ..... "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. And Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized."

James 1:18, 21 ..... "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth .... Therefore, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (I Corinthians 15:1-2).

Romans 1:16 ..... "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Luke 8:11, 15 ..... (The Parable of the Sower) --- "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

I Corinthians 1:21 ..... "God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace teaches that you cannot resist the grace of God, nor can you resist His Spirit. What does the Bible say? (Can you resist the grace of God and can you resist the Holy Spirit?)

Revelation 3:20 ..... "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me." The Holy Spirit is a gentleman! He knocks at the door of your heart, he doesn't kick it down! Man has the choice to hear and open, or to refuse Him entrance.

Matthew 23:37 ..... "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ... How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

II Timothy 3:8 ..... "And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose (resist) the truth." "Thou didst bear with them for many years, and admonished them by Thy Spirit through Thy prophets, yet they would not give ear" (Nehemiah 9:30). "The angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, and fought against them" (Isaiah 63:9-10).

Acts 7:51 ..... "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did." "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30). "Do not quench the Spirit" (I Thessalonians 5:19).

Does God give His Holy Spirit to the elect before they have heard, believed and accepted the gospel (as Calvinism teaches), or does He bestow His Spirit only upon those who have accepted Christ?

John 14:17 ..... Jesus promises to send to His disciples "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him."

John 7:38-39 ..... "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' This He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive."

Acts 2:38 ..... "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." "God has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32). Peter says that the Gentiles received the same gift (the Holy Spirit) as the Jews did, "after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 11:17).

Galatians 4:6 ..... "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'"

Ephesians 1:13-14 ..... "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance."

Galatians 3:2 ..... "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"

Galatians 3:13-14 ..... "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree' -- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Calvinists would say that we receive faith through the Spirit; God's Word says we receive the Spirit through faith! Nowhere in the Word of God does it teach that the Holy Spirit directly, miraculously, and irresistibly opens and enters the hearts of unbelieving and unrepentant sinners and regenerates them against their will.

"The doctrine of the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of man, sometimes referred to as 'special' or 'saving' or 'irresistible' grace; teaching that man is inherently depraved and cannot respond to the gospel without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit; is man's doctrine, not Bible doctrine. If the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit is true, then the logical implication is that the Word of God is insufficient in the conversion of the sinner. If the doctrine of Irresistible Grace is true, then it places the responsibility of salvation entirely upon God and destroys the responsibility of man to act. If Irresistible Grace is truly 'irresistible,' it destroys the 'free moral agency' of man" (David Gibson, Calvin's TULIP Theology).

Is God glorified in a lie?

Is that the best answer you can come up with? What is the lie? Is it the lie of eden stuff again? Well if it is, then Arminianism is of the Devil and those who adhere to it are not christians are they? So how do you explain the fact that God allows people to come to salvation at the preaching of "a lie?"

So, I will ask it until I get an answer.

Since you believe that Arminians can preach people to salvation and that most Calvinists were saved as Arminians and that "it does not matter one bit if you were saved as an Arminian or a Calvinist.." Please. Please. Please. IN YOUR OWN WORDS, Please tell me:

Which purpose of God is being accomplished by all of this bickering?

I guess my having said any number of times that I believe in total depravity isn't allowed to be entered into evidence, is it?

Consistancy counts here xzins..close only counts in horseshoes

Earlier you said this

I believe one isn't guilty of sin until one commits sin....which is inevitable due to the sin nature. You believe the "depravity" automatically makes them guilty of sin even before they ever commit sin. (Correct me if I'm wrong about that.)

That is no a defination of total depravity..and in fact does sound closer to Hank than to me or Steve or Wesley

So your post starts off in a misleading way.....you do not believe in total depravity ...so why did you say that ?

The Rodney King School of Theologys school cheer.... " Rha Rha ping poo pa..if it feels good do it"

This has baffled me for about a week now since you started the Rodney King thing. I don't get it.

Wasn't he the guy that got beat up on videotape for resisting arrest? What does that have to do with theology. (PS: Honest question. I really don't get it.)

I'm puzzled. What bothers you about that post? I thought it was rather friendly toward you.

You are only allowed to hit me ..cause I am not nice:>)

Steve is the nice calvinist.....

I believe one isn't guilty of sin until one commits sin....which is inevitable due to the sin nature.

That line is a fair summation of what Wesley believed. What part of it is contrary to total depravity as taught by Wesley?

So, my listener, turn your attention now to the occasion, while consciousness of sin sharpens the need until it becomes the one thing necessary; while the earnestness of this holy place strengthens the will in holy determination, while the all-knowing One's presence makes self-deception impossible, consider your own life!... By vigorously pondering the occasion you will stand before a higher judge, where no man dares judge another since he himself is one of the accused.

I believe one isn't guilty of sin until one commits sin....which is inevitable due to the sin nature.

It just dawned on me..you at least are consistant..man has no sin till he chooses to sin and there is no atonment untill man choses an atonement..it is all about man

Oh. I didn't know that.

His behavior (arrests, fighting, drugs/alcohol) doesn't make him a very good spokesperson for those words, does it?

It became a 'camp' saying at the time..and the fact it is not consistant with his character makes it more interesting

He came to my mind on that Luthern debate....it dawned on me that he is a metaphor for the new age religion..the doctrines of demons..

I believe one isn't guilty of sin until one commits sin....which is inevitable due to the sin nature.

It just dawned on me..you at least are consistant..man has no sin till he chooses to sin

Is it a reading comprehension problem; is it dyslexia; is it misrepresentation? Read it again, Rn. Your summary of my words would get an "F" in a reading comprehension course.

***Who knows. Many of your brethren who are hardshell consider me an unbeliever. For all I know, you do to. In that case, I guess Hank and I will just be cast out together outside the camp.***

1- Many of your brethren consider me an unbeliever. WHAT DOES THEIR ASSESSMENT HAVE TO DO WITH ME?

2- For all I know, you do too. HAVE I SAID SO? IF YOU WONDER THIS ASK ME DIRECTLY.

3- I guess Hank and I will just be cast out together outside the camp. THIS NOW ASSUMES THAT I DO CONSIDER BOTH YOU AND HANK AS NON-BELIEVERS.

Xzins, my post was to Hank -- not you. You join in and conclude that I view you and Hank as non-Christians -- an irrational conclusion and faulty mindreading. Repeatedly I have mentioned that you try to read my mind and then tell me what I think and why what you think I think is wrong. I find this tedious and yes puerile.

Thank you Mom of 7.

In eternity there are chambers enough so that ezch may be placed alone in one. For wherever conscience is present, and it is and shall be present in each person, there exists in eternity a lonely prison, or the blessed chamber of salvation. On that account this consciousness of being an individual is the primary consciouness in a man, which is his eternal consciousness. But that man is slow to pass judgement who bears in mind, that he is an individual, and that the final and highest responsibility for the judgement rests solely upon him.

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