Does God force you to believe or can you resist? Irresistible Grace -- Not a Bible Teaching.

According to the Canons of Dordt (Third & Fourth Heads of Doctrine -- Article 11), "But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions."

Article 12 states: "And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture ... which God works in us without our aid. It is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable. All in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe."

Article 22 of The Belgic Confession states: "We believe that, to attain a true knowledge of this great mystery, the Holy Spirit kindles in our hearts an upright faith, which embraces Jesus Christ with all His merits, appropriates Him, and seeks nothing more besides Him."

John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, writes that God "has given the true knowledge of Himself in an internal manner, by the illumination of His Spirit, without the intervention of any preaching."

Calvinism teaches that those who are not of the elect "cannot believe, even though he hears the external preaching of the Word and perhaps reads it for himself many times!" In the elect, however, "the Holy Spirit works IRRESISTIBLY, regenerating him so that he understands fully that he is a sinner and needs God, and, therefore, wants to be saved and to believe" (Dr. Edwin H. Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 48).

"Thus, the once dead sinner is drawn to Christ by the inward supernatural call of the Spirit who through regeneration makes him alive and creates within him faith and repentance. The special inward call of the Spirit never fails to result in the conversion of those to whom it is made. This special call is not made to all sinners, but it is issued to the elect only! The Spirit is in no way dependent upon their help or cooperation for success in His work of bringing them to Christ. It is for this reason that Calvinists speak of the Spirit's call and of God's grace in saving sinners as being 'efficacious,' 'invincible,' or 'irresistible.' For the grace which the Holy Spirit extends to the elect cannot be thwarted or refused, it never fails to bring them to true faith in Christ!" (Steele & Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism, p. 49).

Is Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace a valid teaching in light of God's Word? Let us again ask some important questions and seek their answer from the inspired Scriptures.

This doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit gives faith to the elect even before they have heard the gospel. Indeed, it maintains one cannot either understand or accept the gospel unless he has first been given faith to do so. Is faith something imposed irresistibly upon the elect, or does it come from hearing and accepting the Word of God?

Romans 10:17 ..... "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." "But many of those who had heard the word believed" (Acts 4:4).

John 20:30-31 ..... "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

John 17:20 ..... "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word." "Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household" (Acts 11:13-14).

Acts 18:4, 8 ..... "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. And Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized."

James 1:18, 21 ..... "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth .... Therefore, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (I Corinthians 15:1-2).

Romans 1:16 ..... "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Luke 8:11, 15 ..... (The Parable of the Sower) --- "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."

I Corinthians 1:21 ..... "God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

Calvinism's doctrine of Irresistible Grace teaches that you cannot resist the grace of God, nor can you resist His Spirit. What does the Bible say? (Can you resist the grace of God and can you resist the Holy Spirit?)

Revelation 3:20 ..... "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me." The Holy Spirit is a gentleman! He knocks at the door of your heart, he doesn't kick it down! Man has the choice to hear and open, or to refuse Him entrance.

Matthew 23:37 ..... "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ... How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

II Timothy 3:8 ..... "And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose (resist) the truth." "Thou didst bear with them for many years, and admonished them by Thy Spirit through Thy prophets, yet they would not give ear" (Nehemiah 9:30). "The angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, and fought against them" (Isaiah 63:9-10).

Acts 7:51 ..... "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did." "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30). "Do not quench the Spirit" (I Thessalonians 5:19).

Does God give His Holy Spirit to the elect before they have heard, believed and accepted the gospel (as Calvinism teaches), or does He bestow His Spirit only upon those who have accepted Christ?

John 14:17 ..... Jesus promises to send to His disciples "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him."

John 7:38-39 ..... "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' This He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive."

Acts 2:38 ..... "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." "God has given the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32). Peter says that the Gentiles received the same gift (the Holy Spirit) as the Jews did, "after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 11:17).

Galatians 4:6 ..... "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'"

Ephesians 1:13-14 ..... "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance."

Galatians 3:2 ..... "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"

Galatians 3:13-14 ..... "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree' -- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Calvinists would say that we receive faith through the Spirit; God's Word says we receive the Spirit through faith! Nowhere in the Word of God does it teach that the Holy Spirit directly, miraculously, and irresistibly opens and enters the hearts of unbelieving and unrepentant sinners and regenerates them against their will.

"The doctrine of the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit in the conversion of man, sometimes referred to as 'special' or 'saving' or 'irresistible' grace; teaching that man is inherently depraved and cannot respond to the gospel without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit; is man's doctrine, not Bible doctrine. If the Direct Operation of the Holy Spirit is true, then the logical implication is that the Word of God is insufficient in the conversion of the sinner. If the doctrine of Irresistible Grace is true, then it places the responsibility of salvation entirely upon God and destroys the responsibility of man to act. If Irresistible Grace is truly 'irresistible,' it destroys the 'free moral agency' of man" (David Gibson, Calvin's TULIP Theology).

At this point, I no longer want to hear of verses that appear to support your position. Deal with the logical consequences

Above are the words of Don't Mess With Texas. Apparently, he opposes using the bible to respond to him.

Can any of you recommend a book to me that has more authority than the bible? It must be some book on logic that he/she owns. Any of you know the title of the book he owns that outweighs the Bible?

Sincerely,

xzins

Whatever. Mistate things all you want. If you are not boxed in why don't you answer the questions posed to you. You have done nothing to prove that you are not. Regarding scripture, of course I wish to test all things by scripture. In addition, God gave man reason but you seem to think that reason and scripture cannot be used. Despite continued pleas, you continually fail to defend your doctrine. You avoid answering any of my questions. And you claim that I am bankrupt? You seek to avoid logic and you call me bankrupt? Answer the questions I and Rn have posed to you for the past two days or so and then we can talk. Until then, don't bother. Everyone is getting tired of your rant.

The following verses show folks resisting God.

Resistible grace means "unconditional election" is impossible. Otherwise, unbelievers would be in heaven.

Everyone must choose. ABRAHAM BELIEVED God and it was credited to him as righteousness. (Abraham did the believing....he chose.)

Rather than raise other issues and questions about Calvinism for your buddy, why don't you answer the questions posed to him. Address those before you start throwing out other things. Until you and your friend do so, I will not begin to address anything that you throw out as a distraction. You too appear to be avoiding the issues I have raised about your doctrine. Rather than run away, deal with them.

There is nothing else to 'throw out'.

Each side is coming from two different directions.

Calvinism from a philosophical speculation, and non-Calvinism from scriptures.

It is clear by your comment regarding scriptures that you have chosen philosophy over the word of God (Col.2:8)

May I say to you xzins IF you were not so overwhelmed by the love and grace of God that you wanted him more than life you have never really met him

You have said that no man was saved at the cross and that it was only a potential salvation...

So Salvation is not of God it is of man

That is not what the word of God says

Isaiah 65 1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

John 6 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Notice that Jesus emphasizes strongly that the Father gives a specific people to the Son --

and those that are given shall come.

Jesus emphasizes strongly that the Father gives a specific people to the Son -- and those that are given shall come

John 10 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Christ's sheep are given to Him; they hear His voice; they follow Christ; they shall never be lost. Such does indeed beautifully portray the power, the irresistible power, of the cross.

Scripture teaches us that it is God Who opens the heart of the sinner.

Acts 16 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us:

whose heart the Lord opened,

that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Jesus did not knock at Lydia's heart, begging her to open to Him as you would present Jesus as a beggar just lucky to have your attention . The Lord opened that heart. The same truth is seen in Philippians 1

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The beginning of the work of salvation is of God -- even as is its completion.

All these passages surely emphasize the truth that the cross of Christ is effective: it accomplishes that which God determined. Those for whom Christ died shall surely be saved. There can be no question about that.

You have choosen a helpless hapless god that achieved nothing on the cross..

I believe that God is the God of creation, he accomplishes exactly what he intended..every person Christ died for on that cross..all of them will be saved..

Can any of you recommend a book to me that has more authority than the bible? It must be some book on logic that he/she owns. Any of you know the title of the book he owns that outweighs the Bible?

How about the Institutes of Christian the Christian Religion ? :>)

to xzins it is the phone book.

He refuses to address who is the all men with out exception that he says is PAS . For months the arminians have told the Calvinists and the lurkers that

ALL MEANS ALL

Now the Calvinists have tried to point out that all can be a subset ..and have provided scripture to prove it..but the Weslyans and Arminians have Yelled at the top of their lungs "ALL MEANS ALL" It always means all men without exception

Now the problem with that is it means that all men were effectively saved on the cross and therefore we have a universal salvation...close the churches they are unnecessary

Now in recent days in our discussion xzings has said that the Blood of Christ is not effective untill men claim it with their will

So all does not mean all ..all really means none.

In this thoelogy NO ONE was saved on Calvary..it was only a "potential slavation",not an actual one

In effect I have been told the blood is not effective untill it is mixed with mans will in the blood bank where God keeps it

xzings refuses to address this clearly , so I am left to believe he thinks Jesus died for all men offering a Universal salvation......OR He died but it it was actully of no value because it is store till man puts the really important ingredient into it..Christ not only did not die for all in xzings theolgy he implies he died for none

It is very confusing how all theses things could be true at the same time..and xzins will not answer...so send him a phone book

"All men are totally depraved. the only thing that keeps us all from being Jeffery Dalhmer and eating each other is gods restraing Grace "

Amen!

Man has no goodness within himself. Any goodness displayed by a man is the grace of God working within that man, whether that man is a believer or not.

Are any of us better than Jeffery Dahmer or Stalin?

Nope.

As humans, we have no righteousness of our own. If God did not restrain sin in our hearts, we would all do the same or worse than Jeffery did.

I have heard that Jeffery Dahmer became a believer while in prison.

Did Jeffery, as a believer, go to heaven when he was killed?

We all better hope so, because on the holiness spectrum, we are all a lot closer to Jeffery Dahmer than we are to Jesus Christ.

God gives a man the gift of faith. As a result of that gift, Man believes. However, man would never believe unless that gift was first given to him, which gave life to a deadened heart.

(Copied you RnMomof7 so you can see how someone gives an honest answer to a question.)

Thank you for that sincere and honest answer. You added a little to the answer trying to give it a little Calvinist slant, but that's OK.

Now you admit the man does the believing, not God, and the ability or power to believe or whatever you want to call it is provided as a gift by God. Is that right?

If that is right, and faith is really a gift, and not something imposed or forced on a man, then it can be refused. If it cannot be refused, that is, if a man cannot refuse to use the gift, it is not a gift, but something forced on a man. It cannot be both.

Hank

Mom, I do not believe you are intentionally dishonest. But consider this. Here is my original question, and statement:

Does God give the elect the power to believe? When God's grace gives a man faith, who does the believing, the man given the grace and power to believe, or God?

The honest answer to this question is either:

"God does the believing," or "the man does the believing."

Notice, the question specifically regards the elect, those to whom God's grace has given the faith.

Your response was the following:

Unregenerate man can believe in many things Hank..He can believe he will win the lottery , or that Miss Cloe is right and he will meet his deam woman . or that there is no God, or that there are many god or that he can will his eternal salvation

One thing the unregenerate can not believe is the gospel

Now, what are we to think. Either you did not understand the questions (but I believe you are much to intelligent for that to be true) or you intentionally gave an answer that did not, in any way, address the question.

Now, if you intentionally avoided answering the question, it may have been a mistake, but, a colossal one, if that is what it really was.

I will accept your assertion that you believe you answered the question honestly, only, answer me this. Do you see why the answer seems less than honest, when you know what you said had nothing to do with the question?

Hank

Every one reading this thread can tell that you are a dissembler and a prevaricator. You never address any question addressed to you and you misstate what others say, knowing that you are misstating them. I will not address you on any issue until YOU address the practical implications which flow from your teaching. You do not want to take responsibility for them.

Again, do you truly believe that your puny little will can withstand the sovereign almight God who created the universe? Are you able to withstand Him? If you truly believe that you can, then you ought to worship yourself because you have made yourself more mighty than God.

Answer THAT question and then we can proceed. If you continue to avoid it, then we truly have nothing more to talk about because you are unwilling to engage in a dialogue.

If that is right, and faith is really a gift, and not something imposed or forced on a man, then it can be refused.

I believe you misunderstand the order of salvation and hence you misunderstand the nature of the gift of faith. Man by nature hates the things of God. No man seeketh after God. In addition, he is dead in his sins. But God, in His grace, gives life to our deadened spirit. Once enlivened, He convinces us of our sin and misery. The deadended spirit cannot be convinced. We receive the gift of faith. The deadened spirit cannot believe. At the same time, God renews our will that we are not forced but willingly embrace Jesus Christ as offered to us in the gospel. At the same time, we do embrace Him freely. Therefore, God sovereignly is 100% responsible for the salvation of a man and the man never feels constrained or forced to love God.

The fruit of regeneration is repentance and belief in Jesus Christ. Our regeneration can NEVER be based on our faith. The reason is clear: a dead man cannot believe.

You say that if a gift cannot be refused it is not a gift. When God bestows this gift on a man, he will not want to refuse it because God also renews the will. Therefore, it is not forced.

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