Posted on 07/25/2002 7:23:40 AM PDT by xzins
Above are the words of Don't Mess With Texas. Apparently, he opposes using the bible to respond to him.
Can any of you recommend a book to me that has more authority than the bible? It must be some book on logic that he/she owns. Any of you know the title of the book he owns that outweighs the Bible?
Sincerely,
xzins
Galatians 3:13-14 ..... "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree' -- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Calvinists would say that we receive faith through the Spirit; God's Word says we receive the Spirit through faith! Nowhere in the Word of God does it teach that the Holy Spirit directly, miraculously, and irresistibly opens and enters the hearts of unbelieving and unrepentant sinners and regenerates them against their will.
II Timothy 3:8 ..... "And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose (resist) the truth." "Thou didst bear with them for many years, and admonished them by Thy Spirit through Thy prophets, yet they would not give ear" (Nehemiah 9:30). "The angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, and fought against them" (Isaiah 63:9-10).
Resistible grace means "unconditional election" is impossible. Otherwise, unbelievers would be in heaven.
Everyone must choose. ABRAHAM BELIEVED God and it was credited to him as righteousness. (Abraham did the believing....he chose.)
How about the Institutes of Christian the Christian Religion ? :>)
There is nothing else to 'throw out'.
Each side is coming from two different directions.
Calvinism from a philosophical speculation, and non-Calvinism from scriptures.
It is clear by your comment regarding scriptures that you have chosen philosophy over the word of God (Col.2:8)
he actually implied that logic outweighs scripture. ftD, I've never heard any other calvinist say such a thing. the handlers better rope this guy in before he blows their cover.
Amen!
You have said that no man was saved at the cross and that it was only a potential salvation...
So Salvation is not of God it is of man
That is not what the word of God says
Isaiah 65 1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
John 6 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Notice that Jesus emphasizes strongly that the Father gives a specific people to the Son --
Jesus emphasizes strongly that the Father gives a specific people to the Son -- and those that are given shall come
John 10 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Christ's sheep are given to Him; they hear His voice; they follow Christ; they shall never be lost. Such does indeed beautifully portray the power, the irresistible power, of the cross.
Scripture teaches us that it is God Who opens the heart of the sinner.
Acts 16 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us:
Jesus did not knock at Lydia's heart, begging her to open to Him as you would present Jesus as a beggar just lucky to have your attention . The Lord opened that heart. The same truth is seen in Philippians 1
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
The beginning of the work of salvation is of God -- even as is its completion.
All these passages surely emphasize the truth that the cross of Christ is effective: it accomplishes that which God determined. Those for whom Christ died shall surely be saved. There can be no question about that.
You have choosen a helpless hapless god that achieved nothing on the cross..
I believe that God is the God of creation, he accomplishes exactly what he intended..every person Christ died for on that cross..all of them will be saved..
How about the Institutes of Christian the Christian Religion ? :>)
to xzins it is the phone book.
He refuses to address who is the all men with out exception that he says is PAS . For months the arminians have told the Calvinists and the lurkers that
Now the Calvinists have tried to point out that all can be a subset ..and have provided scripture to prove it..but the Weslyans and Arminians have Yelled at the top of their lungs "ALL MEANS ALL" It always means all men without exception
Now the problem with that is it means that all men were effectively saved on the cross and therefore we have a universal salvation...close the churches they are unnecessary
Now in recent days in our discussion xzings has said that the Blood of Christ is not effective untill men claim it with their will
So all does not mean all ..all really means none.
In this thoelogy NO ONE was saved on Calvary..it was only a "potential slavation",not an actual one
In effect I have been told the blood is not effective untill it is mixed with mans will in the blood bank where God keeps it
xzings refuses to address this clearly , so I am left to believe he thinks Jesus died for all men offering a Universal salvation......OR He died but it it was actully of no value because it is store till man puts the really important ingredient into it..Christ not only did not die for all in xzings theolgy he implies he died for none
It is very confusing how all theses things could be true at the same time..and xzins will not answer...so send him a phone book
Amen!
Man has no goodness within himself. Any goodness displayed by a man is the grace of God working within that man, whether that man is a believer or not.
Are any of us better than Jeffery Dahmer or Stalin?
Nope.
As humans, we have no righteousness of our own. If God did not restrain sin in our hearts, we would all do the same or worse than Jeffery did.
I have heard that Jeffery Dahmer became a believer while in prison.
Did Jeffery, as a believer, go to heaven when he was killed?
We all better hope so, because on the holiness spectrum, we are all a lot closer to Jeffery Dahmer than we are to Jesus Christ.
(Copied you RnMomof7 so you can see how someone gives an honest answer to a question.)
Thank you for that sincere and honest answer. You added a little to the answer trying to give it a little Calvinist slant, but that's OK.
Now you admit the man does the believing, not God, and the ability or power to believe or whatever you want to call it is provided as a gift by God. Is that right?
If that is right, and faith is really a gift, and not something imposed or forced on a man, then it can be refused. If it cannot be refused, that is, if a man cannot refuse to use the gift, it is not a gift, but something forced on a man. It cannot be both.
Hank
Does God give the elect the power to believe? When God's grace gives a man faith, who does the believing, the man given the grace and power to believe, or God?
The honest answer to this question is either:
"God does the believing," or "the man does the believing."
Notice, the question specifically regards the elect, those to whom God's grace has given the faith.
Your response was the following:
Unregenerate man can believe in many things Hank..He can believe he will win the lottery , or that Miss Cloe is right and he will meet his deam woman . or that there is no God, or that there are many god or that he can will his eternal salvation
One thing the unregenerate can not believe is the gospel
Now, what are we to think. Either you did not understand the questions (but I believe you are much to intelligent for that to be true) or you intentionally gave an answer that did not, in any way, address the question.
Now, if you intentionally avoided answering the question, it may have been a mistake, but, a colossal one, if that is what it really was.
I will accept your assertion that you believe you answered the question honestly, only, answer me this. Do you see why the answer seems less than honest, when you know what you said had nothing to do with the question?
Hank
Two sides, differing views, both with biblical points. Now both sides are arguing that the bible doesn't say what it means, and doesn't mean what it says. And one actually said he is tired of seeing scripture. This is sad.
Again, do you truly believe that your puny little will can withstand the sovereign almight God who created the universe? Are you able to withstand Him? If you truly believe that you can, then you ought to worship yourself because you have made yourself more mighty than God.
Answer THAT question and then we can proceed. If you continue to avoid it, then we truly have nothing more to talk about because you are unwilling to engage in a dialogue.
I believe you misunderstand the order of salvation and hence you misunderstand the nature of the gift of faith. Man by nature hates the things of God. No man seeketh after God. In addition, he is dead in his sins. But God, in His grace, gives life to our deadened spirit. Once enlivened, He convinces us of our sin and misery. The deadended spirit cannot be convinced. We receive the gift of faith. The deadened spirit cannot believe. At the same time, God renews our will that we are not forced but willingly embrace Jesus Christ as offered to us in the gospel. At the same time, we do embrace Him freely. Therefore, God sovereignly is 100% responsible for the salvation of a man and the man never feels constrained or forced to love God.
The fruit of regeneration is repentance and belief in Jesus Christ. Our regeneration can NEVER be based on our faith. The reason is clear: a dead man cannot believe.
You say that if a gift cannot be refused it is not a gift. When God bestows this gift on a man, he will not want to refuse it because God also renews the will. Therefore, it is not forced.
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