Posted on 07/23/2002 6:49:27 PM PDT by sola gracia
Oh, and these kind of discussions inevitably lead to stereotyping and namecalling.
Paul preached sound doctrine in Ephesians chapters 1-through-3, but he ended chapter 3 with an appeal and a prayer for the Ephesians that they would add to their intellectual understanding of sound doctrine the real experience of Christ. There is a strain within Christianity that is scared to death of experiencing Christ...they view it as too "Charismatic and neo-mystical." I feel sorry for such Christians, because they are missing out on the real point of their redemption. The point of their redemption is not to run rhetorical circles around other people, but to experience Christ.
Oh brother, you are so right on. I have seen many professing "reformed" brothers and sisters give up the fight when their "understanding" of theology doesn't get them over the hump. One of my favorite verses is in Phillipians 3:10 "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and share in the fellowship of his sufferings...." (my paraphrase of the NIV)
This is quite a statement coming from someone who was taken up into the third heavens to gaze visually at the risen Lord and had lived in the power of His Spirit for over 23 years. Wow! That's what I want.
When push comes to shove, I will stand and defend the doctrines of grace -- those teachings of the Reformation that revived Christianity, and returned the church to the true teachings of faith and redemption. But for those who see only an intellectual adherence to the truth as the one essential thing, I will try to persuade them that they need to incorporate a worship in the spirit as well. The Spirit is not antithetical to the truth. Why should anyone view them as contradictory? This is one of the tragedies stemming from 20th Century Christianity: The Pentecostals hijacked the "Spirit" and twisted true spirituality. The conservative, traditional denominations largely reacted to the Pentecostals by avoiding any honest discussion and pursuit of the Spirit. This split has been tragic. Christ would lead us to reintegrate spirit and truth so that we can live the lives, and worship Him, as He intended.
You stated the balance and comprehensiveness of our worship well.
Bless you, sg, this is exactly what I'm talking about! It grieves me that the perspective you've articulated is often lacking in many of the discussion threads I read here. I'm not saying "pitch doctrine over the edge," but let's incorporate the practical aspects of Christianity (our relationship with Christ) into the discussion. Spurgeon did so, and that's one of the main reasons he was such a powerful preacher, whose ministry continues to this very day (he combined Reformed doctrine with a practical dependence on the Spirit of Christ -- see what power that represents!).
I know what you mean about adherents of Reformed theology who seem to give up when they hit the wall. That is precisely where I was about 17 years ago. My intellectual knowledge didn't get me past a major crisis. It was when I realized that Christ intended us to actually know, in our experience, His grace and His adequacy to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves in times of real crisis, that my faith came alive again. It didn't change what I had come to understand, and what is usually characterized as "Reformed doctrine." In fact, the practical application of living by grace through faith was entirely consistent with my Reformed understanding (not to mention it was also BIBLICAL!)
Notice how many times in Rom. 9 Paul uses the word "mercy." He talks about the sovereign choice of God as a demonstration of His mercy! Other translations talk of this as a demonstration of God's kindness. We understand that God sovereignly chose Jacob over Esau -- our theology is correct, and our intellectual understanding is in place. But who has come to understand the sovereign choice of God in their lives as a demonstration of His mercy?!
I wish more people of Reformed background would relate the truths of these teachings in the context of the experiencing of God's mercy and kindness to them. Their arguments would be without contradiction.
MERCY! That's what it is brother, mercy. It it hadn't been mercy it would have been justice and we all know where we would be then. I find it interesting that arminians demand that God give every sinner a choice. When in fact, no where in Scripture do we read where God is under such an arrangement. No where is Genesis 1 or 2 do we read that Adam and Eve would be forgiven if they sinned. All they knew was that in the day they eat they would surely die. But in love to their never-dying souls God displayed His mercy!
Mercy Lord, give me mercy. Never justice. But God does demand justice. He cannot forgive sin capriously. His Holiness must be placated. His Justice must be upheld. So He demands justice from His Son!! Hallelujah! The price has been paid. The wrath has been turned away and forgiveness is mine through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ!! Amen and Amen!!
Correct me if I am wrong, but in Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress wasn't there a man who had lost his salvation shown to Christian in the house that had the lions guarding it? It's been a while since I've read the book, but for some reason that man is sticking in my head.
If that's the case then how does that fit into Calvinistic Theology?
That is true. I myself fall in between the two camps. I have been saved since 11/29/92 and I finally found out(realized?) that Spurgeon was(is?) a Calvinist.
*Gasp!* Say it ain't so Mom!
I would love to have been able to sit in on THAT Bible study. ;^)
I'm not sure that the comment of Paul's that we "reap what we sow" really applies to sin. If I reap what I sow, I'm in great trouble, because all I can do is sow according to the flesh. By God's mercy I do not reap what I sow, but what is reaped is the fruit of what Christ has done in my life -- what He's sown. (By the way, in Galatians 6, when Paul speaks of "reaping what one sows," take a look at the entire context of the book...I'm convinced Paul is referring to preachers and teachers who sow legalism in their teachings will reap death. Sow the grace of God into the hearts and minds of people, and what is reaped is life.)
Let me suggest that if you haven't read Piper, begin with his book The Pleasures of God and then to Desiring God and finally Future Grace. I think I can truthfully say that Piper is or is becoming one of the greatest theological minds since Johnathan Edwards. (who just happens to be one of Piper's heroes and mentors) He can be as simple as his writings A Godward Life and as deep as The Justification of God an in depth look at Romans 9. No matter where you start, you will appreciate his mind for truth and his heart for God.
That makes two of us brother.
If someone was to judge my walk with Christ solely on the basis of my contributions on FR, I am afraid that I would not look so good. Yet, what I do here is but a small (and often insignificant) part of me as a whole. My walk with Christ, my ministry, my study, etc. are the sum of all the parts. of which FR is but a tiny bit.
Yet, I need to remind myself that there are some who will only know me, and what I live and believe, through FR, and to them it is important that I be charitable and consistent.
On the other hand, when you are battling some of the aggregious heresy that turns up on this forum, it is easy to slip into "prophet" mode without the opportunity to revert to "pastor" mode as required.
Thansk for the reminders, especially the reminder to be balanced.
With Pilgrim's Progress?
If you haven't read it I would encourage you to find a copy and read it. I have heard a statistic that said other than the Bible, Pilgrim's Progress is either the best-selling or most widely owned book.
God relates to us according to his grace ("...according to His mercy He saved us..."). His grace saves us (in terms of forgiveness and redemption), but His grace also shows us how to walk once we're saved ("...we walk by faith, not by sight"...and "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter" [Rom. 7:6]). Praise God.
So, where is the practicality of the grace of God? How does it influence how we live our lives? We walk according to God's grace. God's grace isn't a club that we hit people over the heads with because they have a different (and even erroneous) doctrine. I've never been able to argue an Arminian away from his theology (and I've tried). But where I can demonstrate the grace of God in my life, the Arminian is without a response. The same sovereign grace that saved us, is the same sovereign grace that meets us at the greatest needs of our life (post-redemption). Paul says that Christ is adequate for our needs; I am never adequate for my own needs, even though I am now redeemed. The doctrine of works that we somehow have something to add to Christ's death in order to merit our salvation (even if that something we add is to condescend and "accept" Christ by the power of our own free wills) is a sterile doctrine that robs God of his glory, and His omnipotent grace. Similarly, the doctrine that says now being saved, I live for God under the power of my own strength and initiative is also a sterile doctrine that robs God of His glory. Where is the grace and glory of God in our lives? If I say that my life is the way it is because of all the great decisions I made for God, and all the works I performed for God, where is God in the mix? Is God even necessary, if I can walk, now, this side of redemption, in the power of my own choices and in a "redeemed flesh"?
Our Christianity must be practical. We must have a testimony of God's working in our lives; as having an intimate role in not only who we are, but what we do. While doctrine is important, and while we need to fight the good fight at times, the church cannot be reduced to a debating society. It needs to be practical. Again, I ask, how does the grace of God make a difference in one's life? It has to do more than simply change our opinions.
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