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. Catholicism cannot teach to the old, exclusively. The Catholic Church was reaching a point of diminishing returns (in terms of regular affiliation) by the 1960's. Something had to be done to reinforce the message of Jesus to the young and the old in the world.

I don't understand the "point of diminishing" return statement. Can you elaborate when you have time? I'm off for the day and will check back later on tonight at work.

I was about 10 or 12 in the early 70s and I remember a lot of my grandmother's friends were scandalized by the changes that Vatican II brought and some of them no longer attended church and almost all of them were upset. Not many Catholics of my parents age attend Mass and that age group was the first big increase in divorce and remarriage. My age group had the Catachism classes largely made up of "Jesus is your friend and don't litter" and we were confused from year to year due to all the changes - one day Communion on the tongue and the next Communion in the hand, one day Confession in the confessionals and the next, Reconciliation face to face in a room. Plus all the smarmy felt banners replacing the beautiful statues, no candles, Tabernacle off of the altar, etc.

Now, 30 or so years later, very few of my Catholic friends and family attend Church at all. Someone just sent me an e-mail of an article that states that we've lost our identity as Catholics since Vatican II... and I think that is true.

Plus all the smarmy felt banners replacing the beautiful statues... 27 posted on 7/9/02 7:21 AM Pacific by american colleen

You remember those, too. It may very well be the case that bad taste in music, art, or vestments do not alter the validity of the sacraments. That's all very well and good. That much Catholic theology...I do understand. But, I mean, really, just because the Mass remains valid EVEN IF the priest wears purple bellbottoms, that's no reason to put us all through the ordeal. Common sense and good taste may not alter the validity or lack thereof of the Mass, but they are a great comfort to see in Catholic priests and laity.

That is indeed a pity and very sad to hear. If you and your friends do not attend the Church who failed, you or the Church? I live in an extremely vibrant Catholic community of Church goers my age and younger. I went through what you seem to be calling the "touchy , feely" Church and came away with the exact opposite impression of Vatican II. I clearly remember the old, boring Latin Mass the had no more relevance to me as a young boy than Dwight Eisenhower's news conferences. What I saw with Vatican II was an attempt on the part of the Church to reach out to the community as a whole and not to the four or five old women that went to church each and every day to say the rosary. My childhood Church was unfilled and empty until after Vatican II. I have been an active member of four different parishes in the last twenty years and all have been vibrant enthusiastic parishes with most Masses filled with people of all ages.

My statement of diminishing returns is just what it implies. The old Church was made up of mostly old people who were more worried about getting into heaven after age 50 than they were about religion as a gift from God. I cannot comprehend the belief by some that the Church should go back to the "old ways." If that happens that will mean the numerical end of Catholic Church membership within the United States within one generation.