If God Chooses Your Destiny Before Your Birth then the Cross is Powerless to Save You

The Works of Arminius - On Predestination ^ | James Arminius

[xzins]

James Arminius was a student of John Calvin who knew his teacher's teaching quite well. He was led by the Lord to acknowledge the bankruptcy of the idea that God pre-selected people to go to heaven or hell without any hope of change at all.

Arminius' wrote:

XV. This doctrine (Calvinist Predestination) is highly dishonourable to Jesus Christ our saviour.

For, 1. It entirely excludes him from that decree of Predestination which predestinates the end: and it affirms, that men were predestinated to be saved, before Christ was predestinated to save them; and thus it argues, that he is not the foundation of election.

2. It denies, that Christ is the meritorious cause, that again obtained for us the salvation which we had lost, by placing him as only a subordinate cause of that salvation which had been already foreordained, and thus only a minister and instrument to apply that salvation unto us. This indeed is in evident congruity with the opinion which states "that God has absolutely willed the salvation of certain men, by the first and supreme decree which he passed, and on which all his other decrees depend and are consequent."

If this be true, it was therefore impossible for the salvation of such men to have been lost, and therefore unnecessary for it to be repaired and in some sort regained afresh, and discovered, by the merit of Christ, who was fore-ordained a saviour for them alone.

[xzins]

Arminius knew from the beginning that calvinism with its pre-selection of real people to heaven or hell made the cross of Christ unnecessary. While he didn't carry his argument to its logical end, it is clear that one of calvin's own students violently disagreed with calvin and demonstrated that calvinism renders the cross of Christ to be a meaningless afterthought.

[drstevej]

Xzins, you have a RED LETTER edition of Arminius?

[vmatt]

Christ as well as all whom the Father has chosen were predestined before the world was made. There is no way to separate Christ from the elect just as there is no separating the Father and His only begotten Son. What I don't understand and haven't elicited any answers though I have asked before is why does it matter? Since no one alive knows who the elect are nor can the elect know without ever doubting? Surely Paul was elect and is the very cause of this debate, yet he himself feared that though he preach the gospel to others he himself would be a castaway, admitting that he hadn't yet attained to the resurrection and that he pressed for the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Paul said many hard things and he never used himself nor meant us to use the knowledge of predestination as an operational principle of salvation!

[drstevej]

Xzins is lonely. He wants you to see his red letter edition of Arminius' Works.....

[Matchett-PI]

I've seen him scream until he was blue in the face before, but now it looks as if he's burst a blood vessel.

[drstevej]

I think it is a companion volume to his King James Version Red Letter edition.

[Matchett-PI]

Please expound on this Scripture, xzins:

Jude speaks of some persons "... who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God ....". [Jude 4]

[RnMomof7]

I have heard of the red letter bible...I have heard of the red sea...I have heard that a red sky in the morning is a sailors warning...and a red sky at night a sailors delight..

But I have never heard that printing the words of a heretic in red gave them substance..

[Matchett-PI]

Please teach us what this Scripture means, xzins:

"So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. ... What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?." [Rom.9:17-22]

[Matchett-PI]

Inquiring minds want to know. Please tell us what God mens by this, xzins:

"...they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." [1 Pet.2:8]

[RnMomof7]

Think on this

"As we follow Pinnock's changing views, we can notice that in recent years there have evolved significant similarities between the theological work of John Wesley in the 18th century and Pinnock's in the 2Oth. For example, in his 1997 keynote address to the Wesley Theological Society, Pinnock observed that there is shallowness in the rhetoric of "Scripture only" and said that over the years he had come to realize "how Wesleyan my moves in method and theism were." Article

Says it all... Father xzins,Wesley and Pinnocks "open " theology........a litte Rome here and a little Rome there..here some Rome there some Rome every where you go some Rome Rome..(red vestments are VERY trendy:>)

[Matchett-PI]

Hey, xzins! Teach us what Jesus meant when he said:

"I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things (knowledge about salvation) from the wise and understanding, and revealed them unto babes ...". [Matt.11:25-26]

[RnMomof7]

My contribution

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Matchett-PI]

Where did you run off to, xzins? Please teach us what Paul meant when he said this:

"..The elect obtained it (salvation), but the rest were hardened." [Rom.11:7]

What does that mean, xzins?

[RnMomof7]

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.

[RnMomof7]

Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

[Matchett-PI]

"Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Yeah, --- what does ..."ordained" to eternal life... mean xzins?

[RnMomof7]

I like this Luke verse..

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Says it all, huh? A little double predestination?...

yep xzins how can this be?

[Matchett-PI]

Hey "answer guy"!!! xzins!! Where did you go? We need you to teach us! Tell us what Paul meant when he said:

Regarding God's punishment on the "vessels of wrath", Paul says: "God does this in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy." [Rom.9:23]

What do you *feel* he means by that, xzins?

[RnMomof7]

Is this an " Open" book test??:>)