Posted on 06/06/2002 5:45:14 AM PDT by xzins
I do not disagree if by 'faith' you mean experiential understanding and by 'knowledge' you mean intellectual understanding.
My view is that our intellectual understanding tethers our experience. But I think our experience can inform our intellect as well.
I admit that sometimes the arrogance of the construct defenders here gets to me, but it shouldn't. Intellectually, I know the construct is nonsense, but the Holy Spirit confirms experientially the Truth of Christ apart from any intellectual understanding. So, some arrogantly conclusory statement may sting but should not -- no, cannot -- disturb my walk with Christ. Carton's threads have been of great value on this important point.
When I step back a little, I can see the reasons for the frustrations of the construct defenders here. These are doctrines which (for the most part) they have been raised with. In some instances, they have very special and personal reasons for wanting desperately to believe in a deterministic model. And then, as the article above mentions, their preferred construct has been in steep decline (historically speaking) for many generations and may well die out soon. Why shouldn't they be angry and volatile?
So, I have decided -- primarily because of Carton's modulated posts -- to take a more modulated approach to the hard-shell detractors. Long way of saying, carton and corin are right in their emphasis and drstevej is right is his balance.
It's a wonderful journey. To strive for the high road (Christian perfection...NOT sinless perfection) is such a fulfilling, joy-giving GOAL in one's personal spiritual life! And during those times when we are in the center of God's will it is "joy unspeakable and full of glory!"
2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brothers, goodby. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you. (Whole Chapter: 2 Corinthians 13 In context: 2 Corinthians 13:10-12)
Philippian 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Matthew 5 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
1 Corinthians 13 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me
2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. (Whole Chapter: 2 Corinthians 7 In context: 2 Corinthians 7:1-2)
BTW, the term "center of His will" is this a synonym for obedience? If His will were a an elipse rather than a circle would it have two centers? :-)
My point: If you are saved, it is of less than no consequence where one stands on the Arminian-Calvinist spectrum. And if you are not saved, well, ditto.
The only issue is, "What must one do to be saved?"
Mat 22:14For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Work xzins
Being at the right place at the right time +Your humility+ Your will+Your choice+ Your perseverence + Gods grace (I figured it would fit in there someplace:>)=salvation
Popular...very popular..God needs man to prove His worth..
Another gospel..
LOL. I've learned that on this forum on you need to make a provocative statement in order to get the discussion started. While I will stick with my characterization for many of the mainline denominations I will also admit that many Arminians truly seek the face of God despite their flawed humanistic approach.
When I step back a little, I can see the reasons for the frustrations of the construct defenders here. These are doctrines which (for the most part) they have been raised with. In some instances, they have very special and personal reasons for wanting desperately to believe in a deterministic model. And then, as the article above mentions, their preferred construct has been in steep decline (historically speaking) for many generations and may well die out soon. Why shouldn't they be angry and volatile?
I really do enjoy reading your posts. These sort of statements make me want to jump up and yell: "Objection your honor, leading and inflammatory." I've noticed that you continually assign presuppositional motives for the Calvinists but yet implicitly you deny any such motives for your beliefs. It could equally be said of you, "These are doctrines which (for the most part) they have been raised with. In some instances, they have very special and personal reasons for wanting desperately to believe in a humanistic model." As I'm sure you are aware the deterministic model presented by most Calvinists is a partial, compatabilist model that incorporates both God's foreknowledge and human will. You have come to the understanding that giving God complete Omniscience automatically precludes a libertarian will and thus your wandering into open theism. So with all your ranting and raving about a soft determinist model you understand that it makes logical sense. Thus, in order for you to be true to your presuppositional belief in a libertarian free will you have to deny God complete Omniscience. So, has Open Theism assuaged your presuppositional beliefs?
It does seem true, however, that the Lord does plant that desire to aspire toward the goal in the hearts of his followers FOLLOWING their conversion as believers. I personally think that the desire accompanies an awakening to the distinction between "individual sins" and "the sin nature that corrupts."
1. It is true that our righteousness in God's eyes is through the righteousness purchased by the blood of Christ.
2. It is also true as the above scriptures testify, that the Lord WANTS us to strive for holiness.
3. It is biblical to assume that what the Lord asks of us is possible for us through the grace that is ours in Christ Jesus.
4. Therefore, there are no excuses for not striving or for teaching that one ought not strive. Also, there are tremendous rewards and glories not realized by refusing to follow after holiness.
1. God loves us...all of us.
2. God wants us to follow the example of Christ.
As I said, I commend you for leaving Finney in the dust. Your statement, with which I agree, avoids the foolishness (IMHO) of reclassifying many sins as mistakes or well intentioned mistakes...
Sanctification: Here we strive (in His power), there we arrive (by His grace). -- drstevej
Even in my most Arminian days I did not believe that
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
God hates sin and those that are not His..
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
In terms of mistakes, sins, weaknesses, etc., I believe honesty should prevail
One of my professors at Asbury had a son who was a Christian. In his late 20's the son began to show symptoms of manic-depression. He was full-blown into the illness by his thirties and had attempted suicide and/or contemplated it on a number of occasions.
For whatever reason, in the son's case the manic-depression was difficult to control with meds...the proper drug/balance/whatever couldn't be found.
In his lucid times the son testified of his faith in Christ. He did, however, eventually take his own life in one moment of despair characteristic of the illness.
I personally believe that HONESTY in this case requires us to fairly consider that this was an INFIRMITY OF THE FLESH rather than a WILLFUL SIN.
We are very certain that reduced brain function really does cause these forms of mental illness, and that they truly do result in tragic decisions that these affected persons make regarding their own lives.
This in no way parallels the person who shoplifts and says, "Well, I was just weak." Honesty in that case would require us to label the behavior "willful sin."
What do you think?
Perhaps you look at it differently than I do. You look at it from the perspective of judgement day when. I look at it from the perspective of the time when an individual's life is ongoing and time for a decision for Christ still remains.
The great, uncrossable dividing line is death. Until that point, God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But even after that point, the Lord say, "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked." I think it is common sense that the father would be grieved by those who are lost.
I do not believe we are capable of holiness zxins..
That IMHO is the problem with Arminian thought..it assumes that we can do anything that is pleasing to a holy God...
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain
Christ is my righteousness...anything done outside of Him in faith is filthy to Him..
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference
We keep coming back to
xzins efforts +xzings holiness+ xzings humility+ xzings perserverence +Gods grace= salvation...
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
In Him is our righteousness.He leads I follow zxins....Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
My wife is a family nurse practitioner who treats depression on a regular basis. As a pastor I counsel depressed persons on a regular basis. Both of our professions are needed. Drawing the line between the physical and spiritual is not always easy! A good grasp of biblical theology and sound medical assessment are indispensible in helping people define the causes and respond to situations like the case you cite.
Routinely throwing a pill or a verse at the problem is no solution.
That is not a license to sin..but a recognition of the power of the blood of Jesus Christ..
We agree.
(Maybe we ought to write this on a plaque somewhere.)
Then we must both be wrong!!!! Cause I never agree with Xzins :<)
I wouldn't disagree with what you say above...with a little interpretation into my own perspective.
The only thing I'd add, and I don't think you'd disagree with it, is that the Lord wants us to make holy decisions rather than unholy ones. (e.g. - he wants us to choose faithfulness in our marriage relationship rather than unfaithful adultery.)
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