Posted on 06/05/2002 11:51:09 AM PDT by sheltonmac
A straw man? Hardly. The "straw men" mentioned in the article are icons in the field of dispensational premillennialism. They are examples of what happens when people get caught up in End Times hysteria.
To address your claim that their eschatology cannot be refuted, the scripture references from Romans, Galatians and Hebrews are stumbling blocks for premillennialism. The dispensationalist cannot help but twist the interpretation of those passages in order make them fit into their paradigm.
Finally! I was wondering when the anti-Semitic accusation train would roll in. I haven't seen an eschatalogical debate yet that didn't involve some kind of anti-Semitic charge against those who don't subscribe to the premillennialist model.
So, as long as you want to steer it that way, let me just say that adhering to a theology that denies the fullness of Christ's sacrifice on the cross sounds a bit anti-Christian to me.
(A) Israel rebels against God over quite a period and ends up tossing their Messiah aside.
(B) Jesus Himself notes they will be scattered and then recalled, drawn, moved back to THEIR LAND wholesale. And then in Revelations, we read of 144,000 being singled out as very called missionaries to the world. . . and perhaps saved compared to others not [cheeky aside . . . I wonder, are Replacement theologians closet Jehovah's Witnesses? Perhaps only their very successful Exlax sellers know for sure].
(C) in 1948 they become a NATION again in A DAY literally as Scripture predicted by an act of the UN with the miracle of Russia agreeing. Thusly, the return migration BEGAN. It is continuing. New York still has plenty who have not migrated.
What happens if NY is nuked and the AntiChrist or some preliminary effort sets up some sort of seeming peace in the MIDEAST. . . and some sort of seeming relative economic benefit occurs vis a vis EU and the MidEast compared to declining America? I suspect more Israeli's would migrate to Israel.
(D) At SOME point God's dramatic supernatural interventions; His Spirit's wooing of them; Public demonstrations of His protection and provision against all odds and all other world forces convinces the thick-headed Israeli's that He alone is Their God; Their Messiah.
(E) Voila--they have then come home. . . spiritually as well as physically. . . I don't see what's so complicated about it. I don't see what's so hard about seeing it plainly in plain Scriptures put multiple ways in a diversity of places in the Old Testament as well as New Testament. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist as much as it takes Child-like faith and confidence that God says what He means and means what He says.
Sure, there are some mysteries about all of the above. But the plain outline is plenty plain. The major data points are rather clearly laid out. The key issues are clear ENOUGH.
Sure, people can choke on gnats and swallow deserts full of camels until Jesus comes but it won't change what He's said. It won't change what He IS DOING and WILL DO.
(F) I've chewed on this sort of Biblical/Scriptural discussion over different issues within and without my own denominational background (A of G; So Bap; Episcopal and non-denominational as well as International Community. and I've had close association with the very rigid and extremely narrow Wisc. Evangelical Lutheran Synod--WELS). As I was pondering all such and quering Father about so much hard heartedness and seeming blindness, close mindedness--I was asking him where it all came from, what sort of spiritual problem; Biblical misunderstanding or whatever caused most of it.
His response sort of startled me. He jokingly chided me about what had He given me a PhD in clinical psychology for if I wasn't going to use it. He then pointed out that the most fierce proponents in all the cases that I recalled in ALL the groups--I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT THIS PHENOMENON SEEMS TO HAVE NO BOUNDARIES RELATED TO PARTICULAR BELIEFS DENOMINATIONALLY--AND CAN EVEN BE OBSERVED IN THE SAME CONGREGATION THAT'S OLDER THAN SAY A YEAR AND A HALF.
The most fierce proponents of the more narrow, rigid, carefully picked proof-text sorts of arguments (as opposed to the whole balance of the whole of the Word of God) were ALL insecure types with strong needs to control and strong needs to have a philosophy of life and even to have a God who would fit in THEIR tidy little boxes. As well, there was usually a fair amount of common fleshy pride in uncommonly huge proportions--usually trying vainly to hide under white robes.
He further pointed out that at it's root, it was at best a lack of trusting Him and at it's worst a rebellion against trusting Him akin to that of the Pharisees. . . and that HE GOD, had even knocked the sides of boxes out that HE HIMSELF HAD CONSTRUCTED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. . . that He doesn't fit boxes well and never will.
I REALLY do NOT know how much of the above applies in this disucssion but some familiar tones and attitudes do seem to have appeared fairly early in the presented documents. Such things are often more evident in nuance than in plainly in one's face. And certainly nuance can be misperceived. But I think there's room for sobering reflection and pondering.
But I don't happen to think God spoke KJV. I don't happen to think it's even more holy than the NIV. I also like THE MESSAGE.
My understanding of the significance is not so much that the re-establishment of the nation in 1948 is itself prophetic as that it makes it possible for their interpretation of God's dealing with Israel at the end of the age possible. For the same reason, you'll see dispensationlists go crazy every time an Israeli group sets a date to lay the cornerstone for rebuilding the Temple.
I haven't completely discounted all aspects of the dispensationlist view, but I can't say as I really hold fast to the whole construct. My thought is that if you're truly living and acting the way you're supposed to (meaning involved in your sanctification) it doesn't matter. Whether there's a pre- mid- or post-trib rapture, or none at all, I'm ready for it. If I must suffer and perhaps die for my faith, so be it. If I live out the rest of my life without ever seeing the end times, so be it. To live is Christ, to die is gain. It's always interesting to study and discuss interpretation of the end times, but it's become WAY to divisive recently and there's way too much focus on it. I know too many people that could draw you a diagram and timeline of the whole dispensationlist end times view, but they couldn't name all twelve Disciples.
It's been too long since you've read I John, and what the apostle has to say about those who claim to know the God of the Bible while denying the Messiah, Jesus. It's been too long since you've read Ephesians 2, about the "ONE new man in Christ," and the abolition of racist distinctions.
This is interesting. SO there is another free-range savior on the hoof out there? And an alternate means of salvation? WHat a cute idea!
What would you call people who do not accept Christ? "Unbeliever" is a term used repeatedly in Scripture. Anyone who rejects Christ as the Messiah is an unbeliever. God does not discriminate along ethnic lines.
John, however, is told not to seal up Revelation because its fulfilment was very near. According to premellenialists, we are still waiting 1900 years later.
So 400+ years is a "long way off" for a premellenialist, while 1900 years is "at hand."
No matter how you do the math, no matter which century you are living in, if you buy into the fortune telling mentality, you find yourself living at the climax of history. After all, how could anyone as important as yourself live at any other moment?
When Napier invented logarithms to help in his Biblical computations, in the 1600s, he proved that his generation was THE generation.
This is really not an issue worth burning down the barn over. I am not convinced that disp. theology is Biblical, but I am not convinced that it isn't either. As we are brothers in Christ, I wish you the very best. May you bear much fruit!
You make excellent points in your post. Perhaps their is too much emphasis on prohecy, i.e. are Gog and Magog Russia and China? and things like that. God bless.
As long as you have all the answers, there is no problem.
>>>might not He also have hidden from you how Israel gets saved?
>This is interesting. SO there is another free-range savior on the hoof out there? And an alternate means of salvation? WHat a cute idea!
You are clanging like a brass gong. You are standing on the branch that is being cut off and you evidence fruit more consistent with 2 Tim 3 than Gal 5:22-23. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 1 Cor 8:1.
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, [love] I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, [love] I am nothing.
Pr 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
The Lord doesn't reveal anything to those who refuse to repent (Antinomians). Because of your arrogance, pride and highmindedness, and your hatred of our brothers the Jews, you can read your Bible in Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic and in the tongues of angels but G-d will not give you understanding of the mystery of the Jews or any mystery. Because you wield the letter without the Spirit and without the necessary requirement of obedience (look up shema and pray for understanding), you are not given understanding. Mt. 13:11. Be not wise in your own conceits. Go back to the beginning and get your foundation instead of questioning mine. It appears you have cut the legs off of your Bible by disregarding everything from Genesis through Malachi and reinterpreting Matthew to Revelation to suit yourself.
Isa 5:21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Further, you might repent of your noxious Nicolaitanism and humble yourself before the Lord so that He might show you something. The fact that some obvious things are hid from you should be a worry to you: 2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost. Think about this: Yeshua was a Jew!
I agree with your evaluation of the author. However, Israel is in God's hands, and as He has stated throughout the Bible, He will be the one to "do it" without the help and meddling of man. While I agree that we should support Israel, it should be in the save vein as with everyone else, by seeing everyone get saved and be edified (1Tim. 2:4), which is God's will. The country of Israel as it currently exists could be totally destroyed, yet God will regather the tribes and rebirth the Nation in a day. What goes on today has nothing to do with what God will accomplish, other than possibly hasten the day of wrath.
1. The first principle for all Biblical understanding is that G-d is immutable. That means that He never changes His mind, and He never goes back on His Word. He promised Abraham a Seed and a Land FOR ETERNITY.
Check what the Bible says in Gen. 6:6: "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved his heart." In the next verse God says He will destroy man, "for it repenteth me that I have made them." Repent in this context is to change one's mind. So God did change His mind. However, God is true to His Word because "He changeth not" in His essence and character. God also promised Abraham that "thou shalt be a blessing" and in "thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." This is as much a part of the Abrahamic Covenant as the land and the seed. Each of these are expanded on by the New Covenant, the Palestinian Covenant and the Davidic Covenant respectively.
2. Replacement theology has permeated the Evangelical community for over 100 years, and yet even in those denominations where it is the strongest, there is support for Israel (example: Presbyterian and Lutheran) - and those denominations are not strong on eschatology at all, and if they are they trend AGAINST premellinialisim. So much for that part of this specious arguement.
I can't speak for the Presbyterian church but I have seen a position paper by the LCMS that indicates a strong preterist, or realized eschatology, position. I do agree that replacement theology is specious; in fact, it is a result of truly twisting the Scriptures.
Good post, however.
Actually, as long as the Bible has all the answers, there is no problem.
Where does the Word of God come in your witnessing? Ro. 10:17 says "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Just how does one go about loving someone into the kingdom? And do people who are lost really seek after God? How does this reconcile with Ro. 3:11 (which is from Ps. 14:1-3): "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God?" What you say sounds wonderful and loving, but it can also be deceiving if it's mush and the focus isn't on Jesus Christ.
I think it's a MUCH HIGHER priority to keep the FOCUS ON THE KING AND HIS MOMENT MOMENT WILL FOR US.
I also happen to think HE put a LOT of prophetic Scriptures in The Book for a reason. I believe He basically wants us to at leasthave a rough outline about what's going on. But I don't think He wants to clue the enemy in to too many specifics much ahead of time at all.
I also think it's a lot like Jesus earthly days. Those with brokenness, humility and a heart after God and tuned in to His Voice, heard and understood. Those puffed up about their own knowledge of The Law; the text--didn't seem to hear OR understand much at all.
Divisiveness is dreadful. But humans seem to find plenty to be manipulated by satan on toward divisiveness--even if it's just the color of the new carpet for the sanctuary. I think Love of Jesus; openness to WHATEVER He's said and saying; Love of others and doing unto others . . . are some key ways to avoid such as much as one may be able to.
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