Posted on 05/27/2002 9:55:07 PM PDT by restornu
The Serpent (Lucifer) deceives Eve—She and then Adam partake of the forbidden fruit—Her Seed (Christ) shall bruise the Serpent’s head—Role of woman, and of man—Adam and Eve cast out of the Garden of Eden—Adam presides—Eve becomes the mother of all living.
Gen.3
20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Redemption cometh through the Holy Messiah—Freedom of choice (agency) is essential to existence and progression—Adam fell that men might be—Men are free to choose liberty and eternal life. [Between 588 and 570 B.C.]
2 Nephi2.
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.
30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.
Alma contends with Zeezrom—The mysteries of God can be given only to the faithful—Men are judged by their thoughts, beliefs, words, and works—The wicked shall suffer a spiritual death—This mortal life is a probationary state—The plan of redemption brings to pass the resurrection and, through faith, a remission of sins—The repentant have a claim on mercy through the Only Begotten Son. [About 82 B.C.]
Alma 12
21 What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever.
22 Now Alma said unto him: This is the thing which I was about to explain. Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.
23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.
24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.
25 Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken.
26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.
27 But behold, it was not so; but it was appointed unto men that they must die; and after death, they must come to judgment, even that same judgment of which we have spoken, which is the end.
28 And after God had appointed that these things should come unto man, behold, then he saw that it was expedient that man should know concerning the things whereof he had appointed unto them;
29 Therefore he sent angels to converse with them, who caused men to behold of his glory.
30 And they began from that time forth to call on his name; therefore God conversed with men, and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which had been prepared from the foundation of the world; and this he made known unto them according to their faith and repentance and their holy works.
31 Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments as to things which were temporal, and becoming as Gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do evil or to do good—
32 Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; for on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God.
33 But God did call on men, in the name of his Son, (this being the plan of redemption which was laid) saying: If ye will repent and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine Only Begotten Son;
34 Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.
35 And whosoever will harden his heart and will do iniquity, behold, I swear in my wrath that he shall not enter into my rest.
36 And now, my brethren, behold I say unto you, that if ye will harden your hearts ye shall not enter into the rest of the Lord; therefore your iniquity provoketh him that he sendeth down his wrath upon you as in the first provocation, yea, according to his word in the last provocation as well as the first, to the everlasting destruction of your souls; therefore, according to his word, unto the last death, as well as the first.
37 And now, my brethren, seeing we know these things, and they are true, let us repent, and harden not our hearts, that we provoke not the Lord our God to pull down his wrath upon us in these his second commandments which he has given unto us; but let us enter into the rest of God, which is prepared according to his word.
Mortality is a probationary time to enable man to repent and serve God—The fall brought temporal and spiritual death upon all mankind—Redemption comes through repentance—God himself atoneth for the sins of the world—Mercy is for those who repent—All others are subject to God’s justice—Mercy cometh because of the atonement—Only the truly penitent are saved. [About 73 B.C.]
Alma 42
1 AND now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.
2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.
7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder? 20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.
26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.
27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.
28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.
29 And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things trouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.
30 O my son, I desire that ye should deny the justice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility.
31 And now, O my son, ye are called of God to preach the word unto this people. And now, my son, go thy way, declare the word with truth and soberness, that thou mayest bring souls unto repentance, that the great plan of mercy may have claim upon them. And may God grant unto you even according to my words. Amen.
You know of course that some will say you are flirting with the devil by even being respectful to us. There are some that believe that it is Christian to destroy us, by whatever means God gives them.
I have to be honest and tell you I look at your doctrine as I have seen it as a mixture of many world religions..you see mine as a deviant from what Christianity was supposed to be.
At some point I hope to understand your doctrine as well as you understand mine......then Scott we can have a comparative discussion. No dirty hitting or mud throwing...just a good scripitual discussion...exchanging scripture for scripture..belief for belief...no mud ..no low blows .
I like you guys..I like understanding your religion.......so let um talk (and yea I have heard about it some already..sooooooo what?)
What a relief! If you started cannibalism it would be all over for you!
I can't have missionaries for dinner right now because I have teenage girls in the house. But I remember that some of those Southern Utah missionaries are mighty tasty, with the right marinade.(smile)
Just a thought:
The reason you find parts of our religion in many religions of the world is easily explained. Amid the human culture, traditions, and belief systems, you have among them all key truths unique to each of them. The reasons the key truths endure is because they are truth, or a popular representation of truth. If there is singular true religion upon the earth, it would most likely embrace all truth and hold upon that which is good. In addition, since all the world was redeemed by Christ, Christ's teachings are still found as a core to any thriving religion.
Sick...very sick...LOL
What do you mean by cannibalism?
You know, haven't you seen the refrigerator magnet that says "Have the Missionaries for dinner"?.(it has two young elders boiling in a large pot)
This reminds me of a funny story about feeding missionaries which I probably couldn't do justice to from memory but if I can find it tonight I'll post it.
But anyway, I think there are lots of ways to learn more without having the missionaries over. It's been said here before but one key thing to keep in mind is that most religions are internally consistent. Or in other words, once you accept a few key concepts/doctrines then it's easy to interpret the rest of the Bible as supporting those views. What tends to happen here is that we dispute individual points of doctrine of whatever religion we happen to be discussing but without really understanding the framework that those beliefs are fitting into.
So I thought it might be interesting for people to list one or two resources that would present a framework for their beliefs which then shows how the individual doctrines fit into that framework. I'm not convinced that anyone will actually go out and read those things but they could if they really wanted to understand the other's point of view.
So let me list two or three and maybe scottie or restornu will have something better. Similarly, RnMomof7 might provide something for us. My short list would probably be:
I have come to see that in the last year..actually I can see where certain things are a given in your doctrine once I learn part of it..
"As we were about to lay down on the ground—for we had no blankets—we heard a dog bark. My companion said it was a wolf; I said it was a dog; but soon we heard a cowbell. Then we each took a firebrand, went about a quarter of a mile, and found the house, which was sixty miles from where we started that morning. It was an old log cabin, about twelve feet square, with no door, but an old blanket was hung up in the door-way. There was no furniture except one bedstead, upon which lay a woman, several children, and several small dogs.So RnMom, if you ever do have the missionaries over for dinner, I hope you don't act like that Missourian. ;^) Or if you do, at least give them good food. :-) :) :)"A man lay on the bare floor with his feet to the fireplace, and all were asleep. I went in and spoke to the man, but did not wake him. I stepped up to him, and laid my hand on his shoulder. The moment he felt the weight of my hand he jumped to his feet and ran around the room as though he were frightened; but he was quieted when we informed him we were friends. The cause of his fright was that he had shot a panther a few nights before, and he thought its mate had jumped upon him. He asked us what we wanted; we told him we wished to stop with him all night, and would like something to eat. He informed us we might lie on the floor as he did, but that he had not a mouthful for us to eat, as he had to depend on his gun to get breakfast for his family in the morning. So we lay on the bare floor, and slept through a long, rainy night, which was pretty hard after walking sixty miles without anything to eat. That was the hardest day's work of my life. The man's name was Williams. He was in the mob in Jackson County; and after the Saints were driven out, he, with many others, went south.
"We got up in the morning and walked in the rain twelve miles to the house of a man named Bemon, who was also one of the mob from Jackson County. The family were about to sit down to breakfast as we came in. In those days it was the custom of the Missourians to ask you to eat even though they were hostile to you; so he asked us to take breakfast, and we were very glad of the invitation. He knew we were Mormons; and as soon as we began to eat, he began to swear about the Mormons. He had a large platter of bacon and eggs, and plenty of bread on the table, and his swearing did not hinder our eating, for the harder he swore the harder we ate, until we got our stomachs full; then we arose from the table, took our hats, and thanked him for our breakfast. The last we heard of him he was still swearing. I trust the Lord will reward him for our breakfast.
From the article of the "Why I am not a Van Tilian" thread: Frame points out that "Scripture, for God's good reasons, is often vague." ... "Therefore, ... there is no way of escaping vagueness in theology, creed, or subscription without setting Scripture aside as our ultimate criterion."
DrJ's #45 on the same thread: it seems to me Frame is stating that theology should be precise where Scripture is precise and respect where Scripture is silent ... The result of this understanding is not skepticism, it is instead a needed caution against elevating our deductions above biblical revelation.
You have a very understandable, human desire to fill in the blanks and extrapolate into areas where Scripture is silent, and I am just saying be cautious about elevating such speculation to the same level as Divine revelation, which you guys keep doing, again and again. Spurgeon does it when he says that Calvinism is Christianity and Christianity is Calvinism. He is quite incorrect, of course. In my view, taking speculation seriously just leads to confusion and trouble, especially here at FR.
Your #150: what does the LDS teach about the pre human Christ? You say he was "always " with the father..
This is what I said, or rather quoted:
D&C 93:21
21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
a few verses later, we have:
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
"In the beginning", here and in Genesis 1:1 and other places, means before the foundation of the world, when our Heavenly Father was the Father of spirits, when Christ was the Firstborn among many brethren and sisters, when Lucifer proposed his counterfeit plan, and rebelled when it was not accepted by God the Father. The Scriptures don't go back before that.
I repeat, the Scriptures don't go back before that.
>> I do believe we are working from a diferent defination of eternal
The important thing is not what RCs and Protestants think, but to learn what the Lord means by "eternal" (233 matches), "eternity" (42 matches), and "everlasting" (231 matches).
>> "exultation"
The word is spelled with 2 "a"s: exaltation.
>> Jesus was a created spirit child of the Father
Why do you stick the word "created" in there?
Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Moses 1:3-6
3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?
4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.
5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.
6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.
Moses 1:30-40
30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?
31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come, and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
40 And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak.
... and then comes the account of the creation of our Earth.
The Father created the Son per Rev. 3:14 and therefore they are not co-eternal. Is that correct? The Father by necessity preceeded the son in existance.. Gen. 1:1 simply says "we". Christ WAS with the Father before the creation of the universe and the Bible says that Christ created the universe, but Rev. 3:14 says that Christ was the first/main creation of the Father.
The Articles of Faith
The Miracle of Forgiveness
But my very favorite of all is one you already mentioned and that is Jesus The Christ. I cannot think of another book that so fully reverences The Savior.
A Marvelous Work and a Wonder is also timeless and a very good read for non-members.
But there are instances where I might give them "Jesus the Christ." Hmm, I feel a story coming on...
When I was on a mission we met a young man (18 yrs.) at church one day. He had grown up in some other religion but against his family's wishes he had joined the Jehovah's Witnesses about a year before we met him. He had been having some discussion with some sister missionaries and they had invited him to church.
Somehow he and my companion got into an argument about the divinity of Jesus Christ and some hard feelings were generated. My companion felt really bad (and the sister missionaries were mad at him) and he tried to apologize but things were still kind of strained. So my companion grabbed a copy of "Jesus the Christ" and handed it to the young man, apologized again, and just asked him to read it.
By the next week, he had read the whole thing and within a few days was baptized. He attributed it to reading "Jesus the Christ" and just kept repeating, "It was the Holy Ghost" (that had witnessed to him).
I don't usually share personal stories like that one in a public forum like this but thought it might be worth something.
For me the most inspirational music that I have heard is "Handel's Messiah". Handel took verses out of the Bible and made them resonate with the power of the Holy Ghost.
Revelation 3: 14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
We also have:
Colossians 1: 15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
The sense of your post turns on what God means by "create". It is very popular among Protestants to say that God creates ex nihilo, out of nothing, but our position is that "create" means to organize, shape, form, etc. Recall those verses in D&C 93 that say the elements are eternal, intelligence (light and truth) is eternal, that is, not created (out of nothing) or made.
So God, in the beginning, took unorganized eternal matter and formed the Earth upon which we stand. If God had created us out of nothing, we would have had a beginning, and must therefore have an end. That idea is contrary to the eternal life promised to the faithful.
Now if you plug in this meaning of "create" (organize, shape, form, etc.), your post goes in a different direction. No longer must you say "therefore they are not co-eternal". No longer must you "define eternity as beginning with" Jesus' spirit birth, even though that event was surely "an eternity" before the foundation of this world.
What do we say? We say we lived with our Heavenly Father in eternity before we came here to receive our physical bodies.
The phrase "from everlasting to everlasting" could mean: from the eternity we lived in before the foundation of the world to the eternity we will live in after Judgment Day (which is the same eternity). When we are in eternity, I believe we will not think in terms of time, or beginning, or end, the way we do now.
Inquiring minds want to know, but the Scriptures do not say what "spirit birth" is exactly, or what comes before it, they just proclaim that intelligence and "the elements" are eternal, and that God is the Father of our spirits, of whom Jesus Christ is the Firstborn.
Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities. If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as they are.
WM this indicates the prexistance of the Father to Jesus . Which only makes sense in your doctrinal position. Jesus could not have been present with the father when the Father was a man..correct?
May I ask how you believe the "intelligences " came to be? To me that sounds a bit "evolutionary"
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