Posted on 05/27/2002 9:55:07 PM PDT by restornu
You know of course that some will say you are flirting with the devil by even being respectful to us. There are some that believe that it is Christian to destroy us, by whatever means God gives them.
I have to be honest and tell you I look at your doctrine as I have seen it as a mixture of many world religions..you see mine as a deviant from what Christianity was supposed to be.
At some point I hope to understand your doctrine as well as you understand mine......then Scott we can have a comparative discussion. No dirty hitting or mud throwing...just a good scripitual discussion...exchanging scripture for scripture..belief for belief...no mud ..no low blows .
I like you guys..I like understanding your religion.......so let um talk (and yea I have heard about it some already..sooooooo what?)
What a relief! If you started cannibalism it would be all over for you!
I can't have missionaries for dinner right now because I have teenage girls in the house. But I remember that some of those Southern Utah missionaries are mighty tasty, with the right marinade.(smile)
Just a thought:
The reason you find parts of our religion in many religions of the world is easily explained. Amid the human culture, traditions, and belief systems, you have among them all key truths unique to each of them. The reasons the key truths endure is because they are truth, or a popular representation of truth. If there is singular true religion upon the earth, it would most likely embrace all truth and hold upon that which is good. In addition, since all the world was redeemed by Christ, Christ's teachings are still found as a core to any thriving religion.
Sick...very sick...LOL
What do you mean by cannibalism?
You know, haven't you seen the refrigerator magnet that says "Have the Missionaries for dinner"?.(it has two young elders boiling in a large pot)
This reminds me of a funny story about feeding missionaries which I probably couldn't do justice to from memory but if I can find it tonight I'll post it.
But anyway, I think there are lots of ways to learn more without having the missionaries over. It's been said here before but one key thing to keep in mind is that most religions are internally consistent. Or in other words, once you accept a few key concepts/doctrines then it's easy to interpret the rest of the Bible as supporting those views. What tends to happen here is that we dispute individual points of doctrine of whatever religion we happen to be discussing but without really understanding the framework that those beliefs are fitting into.
So I thought it might be interesting for people to list one or two resources that would present a framework for their beliefs which then shows how the individual doctrines fit into that framework. I'm not convinced that anyone will actually go out and read those things but they could if they really wanted to understand the other's point of view.
So let me list two or three and maybe scottie or restornu will have something better. Similarly, RnMomof7 might provide something for us. My short list would probably be:
I have come to see that in the last year..actually I can see where certain things are a given in your doctrine once I learn part of it..
"As we were about to lay down on the ground—for we had no blankets—we heard a dog bark. My companion said it was a wolf; I said it was a dog; but soon we heard a cowbell. Then we each took a firebrand, went about a quarter of a mile, and found the house, which was sixty miles from where we started that morning. It was an old log cabin, about twelve feet square, with no door, but an old blanket was hung up in the door-way. There was no furniture except one bedstead, upon which lay a woman, several children, and several small dogs.So RnMom, if you ever do have the missionaries over for dinner, I hope you don't act like that Missourian. ;^) Or if you do, at least give them good food. :-) :) :)"A man lay on the bare floor with his feet to the fireplace, and all were asleep. I went in and spoke to the man, but did not wake him. I stepped up to him, and laid my hand on his shoulder. The moment he felt the weight of my hand he jumped to his feet and ran around the room as though he were frightened; but he was quieted when we informed him we were friends. The cause of his fright was that he had shot a panther a few nights before, and he thought its mate had jumped upon him. He asked us what we wanted; we told him we wished to stop with him all night, and would like something to eat. He informed us we might lie on the floor as he did, but that he had not a mouthful for us to eat, as he had to depend on his gun to get breakfast for his family in the morning. So we lay on the bare floor, and slept through a long, rainy night, which was pretty hard after walking sixty miles without anything to eat. That was the hardest day's work of my life. The man's name was Williams. He was in the mob in Jackson County; and after the Saints were driven out, he, with many others, went south.
"We got up in the morning and walked in the rain twelve miles to the house of a man named Bemon, who was also one of the mob from Jackson County. The family were about to sit down to breakfast as we came in. In those days it was the custom of the Missourians to ask you to eat even though they were hostile to you; so he asked us to take breakfast, and we were very glad of the invitation. He knew we were Mormons; and as soon as we began to eat, he began to swear about the Mormons. He had a large platter of bacon and eggs, and plenty of bread on the table, and his swearing did not hinder our eating, for the harder he swore the harder we ate, until we got our stomachs full; then we arose from the table, took our hats, and thanked him for our breakfast. The last we heard of him he was still swearing. I trust the Lord will reward him for our breakfast.
From the article of the "Why I am not a Van Tilian" thread: Frame points out that "Scripture, for God's good reasons, is often vague." ... "Therefore, ... there is no way of escaping vagueness in theology, creed, or subscription without setting Scripture aside as our ultimate criterion."
DrJ's #45 on the same thread: it seems to me Frame is stating that theology should be precise where Scripture is precise and respect where Scripture is silent ... The result of this understanding is not skepticism, it is instead a needed caution against elevating our deductions above biblical revelation.
You have a very understandable, human desire to fill in the blanks and extrapolate into areas where Scripture is silent, and I am just saying be cautious about elevating such speculation to the same level as Divine revelation, which you guys keep doing, again and again. Spurgeon does it when he says that Calvinism is Christianity and Christianity is Calvinism. He is quite incorrect, of course. In my view, taking speculation seriously just leads to confusion and trouble, especially here at FR.
Your #150: what does the LDS teach about the pre human Christ? You say he was "always " with the father..
This is what I said, or rather quoted:
D&C 93:21
21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
a few verses later, we have:
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
"In the beginning", here and in Genesis 1:1 and other places, means before the foundation of the world, when our Heavenly Father was the Father of spirits, when Christ was the Firstborn among many brethren and sisters, when Lucifer proposed his counterfeit plan, and rebelled when it was not accepted by God the Father. The Scriptures don't go back before that.
I repeat, the Scriptures don't go back before that.
>> I do believe we are working from a diferent defination of eternal
The important thing is not what RCs and Protestants think, but to learn what the Lord means by "eternal" (233 matches), "eternity" (42 matches), and "everlasting" (231 matches).
>> "exultation"
The word is spelled with 2 "a"s: exaltation.
>> Jesus was a created spirit child of the Father
Why do you stick the word "created" in there?
Hebrews 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Moses 1:3-6
3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?
4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.
5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.
6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.
Moses 1:30-40
30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?
31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come, and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
40 And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak.
... and then comes the account of the creation of our Earth.
The Father created the Son per Rev. 3:14 and therefore they are not co-eternal. Is that correct? The Father by necessity preceeded the son in existance.. Gen. 1:1 simply says "we". Christ WAS with the Father before the creation of the universe and the Bible says that Christ created the universe, but Rev. 3:14 says that Christ was the first/main creation of the Father.
The Articles of Faith
The Miracle of Forgiveness
But my very favorite of all is one you already mentioned and that is Jesus The Christ. I cannot think of another book that so fully reverences The Savior.
A Marvelous Work and a Wonder is also timeless and a very good read for non-members.
But there are instances where I might give them "Jesus the Christ." Hmm, I feel a story coming on...
When I was on a mission we met a young man (18 yrs.) at church one day. He had grown up in some other religion but against his family's wishes he had joined the Jehovah's Witnesses about a year before we met him. He had been having some discussion with some sister missionaries and they had invited him to church.
Somehow he and my companion got into an argument about the divinity of Jesus Christ and some hard feelings were generated. My companion felt really bad (and the sister missionaries were mad at him) and he tried to apologize but things were still kind of strained. So my companion grabbed a copy of "Jesus the Christ" and handed it to the young man, apologized again, and just asked him to read it.
By the next week, he had read the whole thing and within a few days was baptized. He attributed it to reading "Jesus the Christ" and just kept repeating, "It was the Holy Ghost" (that had witnessed to him).
I don't usually share personal stories like that one in a public forum like this but thought it might be worth something.
For me the most inspirational music that I have heard is "Handel's Messiah". Handel took verses out of the Bible and made them resonate with the power of the Holy Ghost.
Revelation 3: 14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
We also have:
Colossians 1: 15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
The sense of your post turns on what God means by "create". It is very popular among Protestants to say that God creates ex nihilo, out of nothing, but our position is that "create" means to organize, shape, form, etc. Recall those verses in D&C 93 that say the elements are eternal, intelligence (light and truth) is eternal, that is, not created (out of nothing) or made.
So God, in the beginning, took unorganized eternal matter and formed the Earth upon which we stand. If God had created us out of nothing, we would have had a beginning, and must therefore have an end. That idea is contrary to the eternal life promised to the faithful.
Now if you plug in this meaning of "create" (organize, shape, form, etc.), your post goes in a different direction. No longer must you say "therefore they are not co-eternal". No longer must you "define eternity as beginning with" Jesus' spirit birth, even though that event was surely "an eternity" before the foundation of this world.
What do we say? We say we lived with our Heavenly Father in eternity before we came here to receive our physical bodies.
The phrase "from everlasting to everlasting" could mean: from the eternity we lived in before the foundation of the world to the eternity we will live in after Judgment Day (which is the same eternity). When we are in eternity, I believe we will not think in terms of time, or beginning, or end, the way we do now.
Inquiring minds want to know, but the Scriptures do not say what "spirit birth" is exactly, or what comes before it, they just proclaim that intelligence and "the elements" are eternal, and that God is the Father of our spirits, of whom Jesus Christ is the Firstborn.
Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities. If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as they are.
WM this indicates the prexistance of the Father to Jesus . Which only makes sense in your doctrinal position. Jesus could not have been present with the father when the Father was a man..correct?
May I ask how you believe the "intelligences " came to be? To me that sounds a bit "evolutionary"
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