CALVINISM, ARMINIANISM & THE WORD OF GOD A CALVARY CHAPEL PERSPECTIVE

What does it mean to be a part of the growing number of Calvary Chapel Fellowships? There are certain distinctions that cause us to stand out among other evangelical churches. We could point to our shared commitment to systematic Bible teaching or the emphasis upon love that transcends all cultural and ethnic barriers. Calvary Chapels have also been known for focus on worship, featuring contemporary music loyal to the Word of God and the desire of His people to praise their Lord. Without exception, Calvary Chapels have taken a strong stand for a pre-tribulational and pre-millennial view of the second coming of Jesus Christ. We have also expressed a steadfast love and support for the nation of Israel, its right to a historic homeland and its need for the Messiah. But most importantly, Calvary Chapel has been known for striking a balance between extremes on controversial theological issues that have often caused division rather than unity in the body of Christ.

Calvary Chapels have no desire to be divisive nor dogmatic in areas where Bible believers and teachers have disagreed. However, it is important to state as clearly as possible the doctrinal basis of our fellowship and unity with one another, especially in the area of pastoral leadership and teaching. While we welcome believers who disagree with us to our fellowship, we do encourage a measure of doctrinal understanding and unity among our pastors who teach us the truths of God's Word.

Calvary Chapels try to avoid conclusions, terminology, and arguments which are not clearly presented in the Bible. In no area of controversy is this approach more essential than in the long simmering debate between Calvinists and Arminians. In the midst of this heated argument it is easy to ignore or neglect the plain statements of the Bible, or to believe that we have the ability to fully understand the ways of God (Romans 11:33-36). But how tragic it is when we become more concerned with being "right" than being loving. When we discuss the ministry of the Holy Spirit, it is easy to disagree over terms such as "baptism" and "filling" and to miss the blessing and power of God's Spirit in our lives. The way we conduct our debates and express our opinions will sometimes "quench" as well as "grieve" the blessed Spirit who dwells within the believer. In the midst of our arguments over spiritual gifts, we can miss the Biblical admonition to love, which clearly is greater than all the gifts (I Corinthians 12:31 - 14:1) Our desire is to bring believers together in the love and unity of the Holy Spirit. Our focus is on our awesome God, not on ourselves. We are committed to glorifying our Lord in all we say and do.

Perhaps no issue is as important or as potentially divisive as the doctrine of salvation, reflected in the debate between followers of John Calvin (1509-1564) and those of Jacob Hermann (1560-1609), best known by the Latin form of his last name, Arminius. Since the Protestant Reformation in the 16th Century, Christian churches and leaders have disagreed over such issues as depravity, God's sovereignty, human responsibility, election, predestination, eternal security and the nature and extent of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Although trained in the reformed tradition, Arminius had serious doubts about the doctrine of "sovereign grace" as taught by the followers of John Calvin. He was a pastor of the Reformed congregation in Amsterdam (1588), but during his fifteen years of ministry there, he began to question any of the conclusions of Calvinism. He left the pastorate and became professor of theology at the University of Leyden. It was his series of lectures on election and predestination that led to a violent and tragic controversy. After his death in 1609, his followers developed the Remonstrance of 1610 which outlined the "Five Points of Arminianism." This document was a protest against the doctrines of the Calvinists, and was submitted to the State of Holland. In 1618, a National Synod of the Church was convened in Dort to examine the teachings or Arminius in the light of Scripture. After 154 sessions, lasting seven months, the Five Points of Arminianism were declared to be heretical. After the synod, many of the disciples of Arminius, such as Hugo Grotius, were imprisoned or banished. When John Wesley took up some of the teachings of Arminianism, the movement began to grow, and it affected the Methodist tradition as well as the beliefs of most Pentecostal and Charismatic churches.

Arminius believed that the fall of man was not total, maintaining that there was enough good left in man for him to will to accept Jesus Christ unto salvation.

Arminius believed that election was based on the foreknowledge of God as to who would believe. Man's "act of faith" was seen as the "condition" or his being elected to eternal life, since God foresaw him exercising his "free will" in response to Jesus Christ.

Arminius held that redemption was based on the fact that God loves everybody, that Christ died for everyone, and that the Father is not willing that any should perish. The death of Christ provided the grounds for God to save all men, but each must exercise his own "free will" in order to be saved.

Arminius believed that since God wanted all men to be saved, He sent the Holy Spirit to "woo" all men to Christ, but since man has absolute "free will," he is able to resist God's will for his life. He believed that God's will to save all men can be frustrated by the finite will of man. He also taught that man exercises his own will first, and then is born again.

If man cannot be saved by God unless it is man's will to be saved, then man cannot continue in salvation unless he continues to will to be saved.

Interestingly, John Calvin, the French reformer, did not formulate what today we know as the Five Points of Calvinism. This came out of the Canons of the Council of Dort (1618), and subsequent statements among the many Reformed Confessions have expanded upon these matters. Calvinism has been known for outstanding scholars, theologians, preachers, and reformers, men such as John Owen, George Whitefield, William Wilberforce, Abraham Kuyper, Charles Hodge, B.B. Warfield, J. Gresham Machen, and Charles Haddon Spurgeon.

Those in the reformed tradition who answered the teachings of Arminius chose the word "TULIP" as an acrostic to summarize their answer to the Five Points of Arminianism":

1. "T" = TOTAL DEPRAVITY - The Calvinists believed that man is in absolute bondage to sin and Satan, unable to exercise his own will to trust in Jesus Christ without the help of God.

2. "U" = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - The Calvinists believed that foreknowledge is based upon the plan and purpose of God, and that election is not based upon the decision of man, but the "free will" of the Creator alone.

3. "L" = LIMITED ATONEMENT - The Calvinists believed that Jesus Christ died to save those who were given to Him by the Father in eternity past. In their view, all for whom Jesus died (the elect) will be saved, and all for whom He did not die (the non elect) will be lost.

4. "I" = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - The Calvinists believed that the Lord possesses irresistible grace that cannot be obstructed. They taught that the free will of man is so far removed from salvation, that the elect are regenerated (made spiritually alive) by God even before expressing faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. If a totally depraved person wasn't made alive by the Holy Spirit, such a calling on God would be impossible.

5. "P" = PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - The Calvinists believed that salvation is entirely the work of the Lord, and that man has absolutely nothing to do with the process. The saints will persevere because God will see to it that He will finish the work He has begun.

It is not our purpose to take sides on these issues or to divide the body of Jesus Christ over human interpretations of these Biblical truths concerning our salvation. We simply desire to state how we in the Calvary Chapel fellowships understand the Bible's teaching regarding these matters.

We believe that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and unable by human performance to earn, deserve, or merit salvation (Titus 3:5). We believe that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that apart from God's grace, no one can be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9). We believe that none are righteous, or capable of doing good (Romans 3:10-12), and that apart from the conviction and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, none can be saved (John 1:12-13; 16:8-11; I Peter 1:23-25). Mankind is clearly fallen and lost in sin.

We believe that God chose the believer before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-6), and based on His foreknowledge, has predestined the believer to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29-30). We believe that God offers salvation to all who will call on His name. Romans 10:13 says, "For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." We also believe that God calls to Himself those who will believe in His Son, Jesus Christ (I Corinthians 1:9). However, the Bible also teaches that an invitation (or call) is given to all, but that only a few will accept it. We see this balance throughout scripture. Revelation 22:17 states, "And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." I Peter 1:2 tells us we are, "elect according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." Matthew 22:14 says, "For many are called, but few are chosen (elected)." God clearly does choose, but man must also accept God's invitation to salvation.

We believe that Jesus Christ died as a propitiation (a satisfaction of the righteous wrath of God against sin) "for the whole world" (I John 2:2; 4:9-10), and that He redeems and forgives all who will believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as their only hope of salvation from sin, death, and hell (Ephesians 1:7; I Peter 1:18-19). We believe that eternal life is a gift of God (Romans 6:23), and that "whosoever believeth" in Jesus Christ will not perish, but will have eternal life (John 3:16-18). I Timothy 4:10 says "we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe." Hebrews 2:9 states that Jesus, "was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, should taste death for every man." The atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ was clearly sufficient to save the entire human race.

We believe that God's grace is not the result of human effort or worthiness (Romans 3:24-28; 11:6), but is the response of God's mercy and love to those who will believe in His Son (Ephesians 2:4-10). Grace gives to us what we do not deserve nor can earn by our performance (Romans 11:6). We believe that God's grace and mercy can be resisted by us. Jesus said in Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them who are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not." We are not condemned because we have no opportunity to be saved, but a person is condemned because he makes a choice not to believe (John 3:18). In John 5:40 we read "And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life." Jesus also said in John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:40 states, "And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that everyone who seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life." In John 7:37 Jesus said "If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink." In John 11:26 He adds "whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die."

Jesus clearly acknowledges the fact of human resistance and rejection. In John 12:46-48 He said, "I am come as a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came, not to judge the world but to save the world. He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath One that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

In Stephen's message in Acts 7:51, he concluded by saying, "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost; as your fathers did, so do ye." In Romans 10:21, the apostle Paul quotes Isaiah 65:2 when he speaks of God's words to Israel, "All day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." In one of the five warning passages of the book of Hebrews, we read in Hebrews 10:26, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Verse 29 adds, "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Clearly, God's grace can either be resisted or received by the exercise of human free will.

We believe that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 8:38-39), and that there is no condemnation to those who are in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:1). We believe that the promise of Jesus in John 10:27-28 is clear: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand." Jesus said in John 6:37, "him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." We have this assurance in Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." We believe that the Holy Spirit has sealed us unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30).

But we also are deeply concerned over the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23: "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father, who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? And in Thy name have cast out devils? And in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." Apparently there are many who claim to be believers that in fact are not.

Jesus said in Luke 9:62, "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." I Corinthians 6:9-10 insists that "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" and warns us not to be deceived. A list is then given of various kinds of sinful lifestyles with an ending remark that they will not inherit the kingdom of God. Similar statements and conclusions are given in Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:3-5.

Galatians 5:4 says "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Colossians 1:22-23 says about Jesus Christ "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight, if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature that is under heaven, of which I, Paul, am made a minister." II Timothy 2:12 says "if we deny Him, He also will deny us." Hebrews 3:12 says, "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Can true believers ("brethren") depart from the living God? I Timothy 4:1 says that "in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith." II Thessalonians 2:3 speaks of "a falling away" or an apostasy. II Peter 2:20-21 makes these remarkable statements: "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

It is no wonder that Peter says in I Peter 1:10, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure; for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." We thank God for the encouragement of Jude 24 - "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy."

Maintaining a Bible centered balance in these difficult issues is of great importance. We do believe in the perseverance of the saints (true believers), but are deeply concerned about sinful lifestyles and rebellious hearts among those who call themselves "Christians." We don't have all the answers to these matters, but we desire to be faithful to the Lord and His word. If we find ourselves basing our view of salvation on the performance and attitudes of people we become discouraged and concerned. But when we keep our eyes on the Lord, and trust in Him alone and in His power, we say with Peter in I Peter 1:3-9:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to His abundant mercy, hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations, that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ, whom, having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see Him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

It is not easy to maintain the unity of the Spirit among us on these matters. It seems that the sovereignty of God and human responsibility are like two parallel lines that do not seem to intersect within our finite minds. God's ways are "past finding out" (Romans 11:33), and the Bible warns us to "lean not unto thy own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5). To say what God says in the Bible - no more and no less - is not always easy, comfortable, or completely understandable. But Scripture tells us that the wisdom from above will be loving and kind toward all, seeking the unity of the believers, not trying to find ways to divide and separate from one another. May God help us all to love each other, to be kind, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as Jesus Christ has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32)! In difficult doctrinal matters, may we have gracious attitudes and humble hearts, desiring most of all to please Him who has called us to serve Him in the body of Christ. Discussion - YES! Disagreements - YES! Division - NO!

Jesus said, "By their fruit ye shall know them." When a particular position on the Scriptures causes one to become argumentative, legalistic, and divisive, I question the validity of that position. I seek to embrace those things that tend to make me more loving and kind, more forgiving and merciful. I know then that I am becoming more like my Lord. If you have come to a strong personal conviction on one side of a doctrinal issue, please grant us the privilege of first seeing how it has helped you to become more Christ-like in your nature, and then we will judge whether we need to come to that same persuasion. Let us always be certain to look at the fruit of the teaching.

Seek those things that produce the loving nature of Jesus in our lives. I would rather have the wrong facts and a right attitude, than right facts and a wrong attitude. God can change my understanding of the facts in a moment, but it often takes a lifetime to effect changes of attitude.

How would it affect your life IF the Calvinists were correct? How would things "be different" for either of us in the way we live our lives and faith out if the other was correct?

You needed to read the whole post. I answered this question as follows:
Both "systems" are man made creations which attempt to put God in a box. Both belief systems are wholly unnecessary to anyone's salvation as it matters not one whit "why" we come to Jesus, what matters is "whether" we come to Jesus.

No matter which belief system is true (I happen to believe that neither of them contain any fullness of "truth") it matters not a whit to our salvation. As I said above, too much emphasis is placed on "how" we become saved and not enough emphasis is placed on "whether" we become saved. That is what the entire message of Chuck Smith is all about. And yet it seems you think that because he refuses to take a side on which system holds the keys to the "how" that somehow he is preaching a compromised Gospel. Hogwash! The gospel message is not dependent upon whether we are Arminian or Calvinist or somewhere in between. The Good News is that Christ died for YOU! And if you have ears to hear that simple message, then you have the responsibility and the ability to respond. That is the Gospel. It is not watered down because someone happens to believe in "free will." It is not emphasised merely because someone believes that you don't have a "free will." It is the plain and simple gospel. Don't complicate it by attaching it to some theological system. The system is merely a shadow. If that.

The reason I asked that PM was I think in "practice" no one's lives change..only our perception changes.

You and I will both continue to talk of Christ and salvation with the unsaved..both of us will pray for the souls of family and friends .

I know for me one of the reasons that I had a hard time with the reform positon was I wanted to believe that I could "talk " my dad and other family into accepting Christ.The thought that the decision may have already been made was a scary thought you know?? ( in fact it made me angry)

I was at a Christian flag football banquet last fall. The main speaker gave a testamony of his "failures" ....He had not been able to to get his brother to repent, his mother had died before he told her about Christ. The man was so burdened by his "failures."My heart went out to him..how awful to carry that burden, how awful to think you have let God down.

The truth is people we both love and care about and want saved will not be...we have been told to pray for them tell them the gospel..even press it on them....But should they not "come" whether it be their "free will choice" (allowing the words as used here by Arminians) or if they were not part of the remnant that God has selcted ,the end results are the same. We both grieve .

So in a day to day living life out the difference there is none. .........One day months ago as I pondered this question of doctrine I started to cry I told God that if he had predestined me to be His...I was so unworthy of that calling and all I could do was say Thank You Lord...It was shortly after that I came to accept it as a spiritual mystery, that is good and fair and loving..because God is good and fair and loving...

So you and I can agree there are mysteries of God we do not understand..that we look through a glass darkly.

One thought. One of the chief fears of those that hate Calvinism is double predestination. Yet in the last day I have read from ftd that God knows in advance who will accept Him and He makes sure that man has the gospel preached..and similarly from X that God only predestines those He foreknows

Yes, but remember that for the Dispensational approach to that passage, we are not saying it is dealing with salvation, but adoption as sons.Thus, the passage deals with the election of the church to the privilege of being co-heirs with Christ.

Both of those things have a strong ring of Calvinism to them....both are saying that God makes no effort to fufill the words they stess so frequently that God desires that all men come..but it would seem that if God chooses not to actually draw all men to Him..only those He is lucky enough to have choose Him, it would seem God did not really mean what He said. It appears that God predestinates them to be lost because of His inaction.

No, God is drawing all men to Him (Jn.12:32) but man resists and rejects the truth (Rom.1:20)

Some Wesleyans try to resolve that problem by denying Gods foreknowlege .

Yes, they are wrong in doing so. They think that for man to be free, God could not have decreed everything that is going to happen. However God has his Plan in place with man's freedom being factored in. Knowing the decisions of everyone He has constructed His plan that everything He wants will be accomplished while both Angels and man have had the ability to freeely, of their own will, reject or accept Him.

Thank you for your post. I believe that we as Christians are responsible for getting the gospel out to as many as will receive it. Those close to us are always the hardest to reach, and sometimes we never reach them and sometimes we reach them, but we never know.

I don't know which is a worse thought. The thought that I did not do enough to save someone I love, or the thought that God did not love that person at all. I believe, however, that the latter choice is untenable and is not consistent with the revelation of God in Scripture and in John 3:16 in particular. After all I am not a good person and I have a concern for the salvation of everyone. (well just about everyone-- there's a few I would buy tickets to just to watch them get thrown into the lake of fire ;-)). Is not God greived when his creation does not respond to his plan for salvation? I think he greives even more than we do, because he is the one who must, according to his own law, give those people eternal punishment.

That is the basic difference I see between the positions.

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Marlowe

You are unecessarily making a distinction between a person who "chooses" to accept the call of the holy spirit and one who is "ordained" to salvation. If you follow the commandment of the Lord and choose to believe and receive, then God will sanctify and ordain you to salvation.

Editor makes no such distinction. Those whom God has ordained to Salvation -- those and those only, of course -- are those who choose, by God's Grace, to accept the Gospel call.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)

In our minds it would appear that the ordination followed our acceptance of Jesus, but in reality, since God knew this was going to happen before the foundation of the earth, God sanctified your choice and ordained you to salvation based upon his foreknowledge. Jesus said that whosoever comes to him he will in no wise cast out. Now it is true that the Father gives them to him, but it does not follow that God does not honor our choices and ordain us according to his foreknowledge. If he didn't want us to be saved, he could always kill us off before we are "destined" to accept him, but he doesn't do that. No, he sees the choices we make now and he sees them from the foundation of the earth and if he wants us to be saved then he ordained us from the foundation of the earth. Your picture of God seems to me to limit Him to time, but He is not limited to time. He exists everywhere both in time and in space. He is in the past, he is in the present and he is in the future. He is the one "who is, who was, and who is to come." God knows the number of those who will believe. God has ordained them to eternal life based upon both his foreknowledge and the good pleasure of his will. Calvinists seem to me to limit his ordination of belivers based solely on "the good pleasure of his will." They are only half right.

Your picture of God heretically limits Him to only one creationally-possible Universe-Timestream... this one, the one which He actually ordained to Create.

But the God of the Bible is sovereign over all possible Universe-Timestreams.

if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

The Tyrians, the Sidonians, and the Sodomites are all Creatures whose existence and cosmological conditions within any potential Universe-Timestream are wholly dependent, subsequent, and conditional upon God the Father's antecedent, precedent, and sovereign Election as to whether or not to create them at all, and under what Gratuitous conditions to create them.

Thus, both the Tyrian/Sidonian/Sodomite choice NOT TO REPENT, and the Tyrian/Sidonian/Sodomite choice TO REPENT are/were/have-been EQUALLY FOREKNOWN to the Omniscience of God alone in Eternity. And, given that the choice-actions of any Creature are NECESSARILY wholly dependent, subsequent, and conditional upon the Father's antecedent, precedent, and sovereign Election as to whether or not to create them at all, and under what Gratuitous conditions to create them, the PREDETERMINING ESTABLISHMENT of whether or not their equally-foreknown choice to Repent, or to Not Repent, would be granted Actuality in Existence, is/was/has-been solely determined before Creation by the Sovereign Election of the Father Alone.

Their Choice to Repent was fully foreknown (given one possible Creative Election).
Their Choice to NOT Repent was fully foreknown (given another possible Creative Election).

Both Foreknown Universe-Timestreams being freely available to His Creative Omnipotence, therefore, God CHOSE to create the Latter foreknown Universe-Timestream, in which they would choose NOT to Repent, and be damned to Hell.

Even so, for it seemed Good in His Sight.

This is the predestination of the saints,--nothing else; to wit, the foreknowledge and the preparation of God's kindnesses,

But where are the rest left by the righteous divine judgment except in the mass of ruin, where the Tyrians and the Sidonians were left? who, moreover, might have believed if they had seen Christ's wonderful miracles. But since it was not given to them to believe, the means of believing also were denied them.

Woody I take a look at the list you flagged, for this public scorn and I must say you do yourself proud!

For me Woody, I am blessed, I have the Stick of Judah, the Bible and the Stick of Joseph, the Book of Mormon and my Lord commands me to be patient and respecting another’s faith, and most of all to Love One Another.

The LDS do not deserve the venom you continue to spew forth, for they in no way have the fruits of the adversary the-

Gal. 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

These are the fruits the LDS were commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ, and strive to do-

Gal. 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Woody
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I think you have to admit that while in our eyes there may be an infinite number of "universe timestreams", the presence of an infinite number of universe timestreams exist only in our present realm because we are collectively making the future up as we go along.

However, and this is a big however, God knows everything that has happened, everything that is happening now, and everything that ever will happen. Now if you admit that fact, and I don't think you would dare to argue it, then you must see that there is nothing that God knows that he has not known from the foundation of the earth and there is nothing that God knows that cannot come to pass exactly as he knows it will.

Thus, in God's eternal universe and from his unique perspective, there is only one "universe timestream" and that is the one he has ordained from the foundation of the earth. There cannot be any others, otherwise God would have known it, and since he doesn't know of it, it cannot exist. The only future that is going to occur is the future that God has known about and ordained from the foundation of the universe.

Thus, God in his infinite foreknowledge knows exactly when we will pick our noses and when and if we will accept his Son as our Savior. God has ordained everything about your life and he has ordained it from the foundation of the earth. Therefore the ordination of your salvation took place long before the world was created. The fact of your salvation was established and ordained from the beginning of eternity and yet you still had a say in whether or not it would occur.

Isn't God Awesome???

Thus, in God's eternal universe and from his unique perspective, there is only one "universe timestream" and that is the one he has ordained from the foundation of the earth. There cannot be any others, otherwise God would have known it, and since he doesn't know of it, it cannot exist. The only future that is going to occur is the future that God has known about and ordained from the foundation of the universe.

You LIE against the very testimony of Scripture.

God specifically declares that He DOES foreknow alternate Timestreams, which He did not ordain to create.

if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

If the TimeStream in which Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom were foreknown to REPENT in conditioned and subsequent response to gratuitous salvific miracles on the part of God were not freely available to His creative Omnipotence alone in Eternity, then He could not foreknow it.

And yet, God does foreknow the Timestream in which He ordains to bring Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom to Repentance in conditioned and subsequent response to gratuitous salvific miracles which are Elected only and absolutely on His part. He specifically declares that He foreknows this alternate Timestream.

But it is NOT the TimeStream which He ordained to create.
God ordained to create the Timestream in which Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom would choose NOT to Repent and be Damned to Hell.

Even so, for it seemed Good in His Sight.

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