Posted on 04/13/2002 1:33:01 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
I am very aware of the differences, thank you.
Condemning / hating ideas is not the same as condemning / hating people.
Amen
LOL!
I have to leave.... "the 'FR' Mars Hill" now.
However, I shall not give up my membership in, "DENSA", since I'm merely one of the many, many, "Galilean" disciples.
I'll leave you 'Kalvenists' and 'Harminians' to 'feed' on each other.
:-(
Sorry, I gotta go!........
And, thank my Lord Jesus Christ for providing a way of 'escape'.
"Resting" in HIM!
m
Look, I don't regard you as regenerate. And I do propose to ignore you from now on. I won't even read your e-mails.
This is a letter I received from Doc himself sometime ago. Now, you tell me how I am misreading it?
So, who should apologize?
Like I said before, you guys have real mental problems, you are wise in your own conceits
This little moment of edification has been brought to you by the Prophet John Calvin, without whom the world would never have understood the true message of the gospel of Christ. Ask a Calvinist: Jesus Christ was OK in his time, but he was no John Calvin!
We now return you to the discussion that is causing Christ, at this very moment, to weep. Hear the words of Paul (1 Cor. 1:10-13):
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1. David lacked discernment in desiring Bathsheba, having Uriah sent to war, and ultimately killed 2. In lacking discernment, he was incapacitated in understanding God 3. Hence, we must never read Psalms written by David....You claim Calvin was a murderer, we all know David was one. Yet God used David in mighty ways. Couldn't He have done the same with Calvin?
... and just a couple of chapters later:
1 Corinthians 3:1-4
1 AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of [Calvin]; and another, I am of [Augustine]; are ye not carnal?
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
... is that Paul is flat out telling the saints at Corinth that what he's telling them is the spiritual equivalent of milk.
For those who believe that everything God wants us to know is in the Bible, and that there's nothing that's not in the Bible that is essential for the Church of Christ to know, if First Corinthians is an example of "milk" where, in all of Paul's epistles, is the "meat"?
Paul frankly admits here that he is holding stuff back from the saints at Corinth because they're not ready for it.
This would not seem to bode well for those who believe in an all-complete, nothing-lacking set of scriptures.
Articles of Faith 8After reading this, you will probably say, "Swiss Cheese Bible". I don't. That phrase does not convey our regard for Holy Writ. The Bible is the Word of God, and exceedingly precious to us. I have enjoyed very much quoting from it in our discussions.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
TG Bible, last two paragraphs:
With the discovery of more ancient mss. not available to the King James translators, many translations of the Bible have been produced since 1900 by Bible scholars. However, based on the doctrinal clarity of latter-day revelation given to Joseph Smith, the Church has held to the King James Version as being doctrinally more accurate than these recent versions. The newer versions are in many instances easier to read, but are in some passages doctrinally weaker in their presentation of the gospel. Therefore, the King James Version remains the principal Bible of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.The position of the Church regarding the Bible is that it contains the word of God as far as it is translated correctly (A of F 8). Joseph Smith taught that “many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled.” He also said that the Bible was correct as “it came from the pen of the original writers,” but that “ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors.” (HC 1: 245; 6: 57.) The Church reveres and respects the Bible, but recognizes that it is not a complete nor entirely accurate record, and affirms also that the Lord has given additional revelation through his prophets in the last days that sustains, supports, and verifies the biblical account of God’s dealings with mankind.
winston: if you follow the TG Bible link, there is some more manuscript discussion.
Good point!
"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you ..." (Galatians 3:1, as I remember)
Demonic deception, among other things, keeps people all wrapped up in the problem so they do not focus on the solution. It keeps people all wrapped up in doctrinal discussions unrelated to our daily walk and keeping the commandments, the things we should be doing to serve God and our neighbor. As the departed Jacob Marley said to Ebenezer Scrooge, "Mankind was my business. Their common welfare was my business." (paraphrased if not exact)
See posts #119 and #120 on the Genesis Chapter 3 Continued (Fourth Try) thread.
Jer.1
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7 ¶ But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
Job 38
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Saints foreordained to receive the gospel—Gospel to be restored in latter-days—Saints sealed by Holy Spirit of Promise—They know God and Christ by revelation.
Eph.1
1 PAUL, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
I marvel that ye are so soon from him that called you into the grace of Christ into another gospel: Which is not another but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed, As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Gal.1:6-9)
THAT IS YOUR SPIN FOR AS I READ IT THIS TOOK PLACE RIGHT AWAY NOT 2000 YEARS LATER!
So the Latter day saints have a new gospel do they? NO NEW GOSPEL!!! THE RESTORED GOSPEL!
(Rev. 14:6- 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. 6 And I saw another angel(Moroni) fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
I must say reading Galatians 1:6, from this understanding shows that the Lord was talking about shortly after he leaves, his enemies will change his doctrine, It had nothing to do with the Latter-Days. Acts 20 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Gal 1
(Now the Lord is talking about 1st century AD not in the latter days)
6 I marvel that ye are so SOON removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(This an early church warning not a latter day waraning,) 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(the latter day angel has the everlasting gosple!) 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
1 Tim 1:6 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
3 John 9-11
9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
The issue is whether Arius or Athanatius was right. Scripture is the arbiter not Constantine. Had Constantine sided with Arius and persecuted Athanatians (Trinitarians) it would not have made Arius right.
1.The Issue is that the Apostles had no trouble with it as it was originally before all of the heathens show up to content over the Nature of the Godhead!
The Apostles had no difficulty understanding the nature of God. They had personally interacted with Jesus and he had appeared to them after his resurrection. They knew he had a body before he died and they knew that he had a body after his resurrection. Nowhere does the scriptures suggest that he would ever discard his body. On the contrary, when Christ returns the scriptures say that he will be questioned, "What are these wounds in thine hands?" (Zech. 13:6) Therefore we know that he will still have his body. The doctrine that Jesus and his father were "one" caused some of the confusion. But Christ prayed in that garden that we all should be one, "neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (John 17:20-21) Therefor in whatever way Jesus and his Father are one, we are also to become one. He is not praying that we all lose our identity and become of one substance.
2.Originally the term "trinity" did not imply a single God but it was meant to imply the 3 distinct persons of the Godhead.
3.It turns out that this compromise position was imposed by Constantine. "At the beginning of the council, the party of moderate Arian views, of which Eusebius of Nicomedia was the most influential member, was in the majority, and '(h)omoousios' (one substance) had some difficulty in securing acceptance; it was imposed rather than accepted. Hosius supported it energetically; the same was true of the bishops of Alexandria and Antioch. The Emperor made it known that he desired the use of the word. This was, for many, a capital argument." (Duchesne, Histoire ancienne de l'Eglise, vol. II, pp. 154, 155)
4.So here we have Constantine who is not a Christian organizing councils and as we shall see, deciding the outcome
5.When they placed before the Emperor the formula of the synod, he regarded it as inspired by God, as revealed by the Holy Spirit speaking through the saints, and threatened to exile anyone who would not sign.
6.And so the doctrine of the Trinity was started. It was absent from the scriptures but is now accepted as the "orthodox" doctrine of the Christian church. There was no church leadership, apostles or prophets that decided the issue. Instead it was a pagan ruler that organized and declared his support for this new doctrine. It was his support that shifted the foundation doctrine of Christianity and established it by the force of his power as the basis of faith in the newly adopted religion of the realm.
PS. (Your version of the the trinity comes from a Pagan!)
Emperor Constantine (312 ad - ?) never relinquished his title of Pontifex Maximus, head of the pagan state religion. He built statues to pagan gods and put their images on his coins. He murdered his own son, Crispus, and had his second wife killed, his nephew, and his brother-in-law. In other words, he wasn't a Christian. Constantine, along with eastern ruler Licinius, instituted the Edict of Milan which granted religious freedom. For most of Catholic history, Constantine was portrayed as a faithful Christian when at best he was ambivalent - reportedly receiving baptism upon his death bed. This did not stop him from exercising what he thought was his role as head of the Church. Just as he was head of the pagan state religion as Pontifex Maximus, he functioned as head of the Christian church which he now patronized. If his contemporaries objected to this idea, they kept silent and the tendency was to heap fulsome praise upon him such as Eusebius.
MY GOD IS A GOD OF FAMILY JUST LIKE THE HEAVENLY FATHER, AND HIS SON- DID YOU EVER HERE OF A SON BEING BORN WITHOUT A FATHER.(Satan is an evil spirit of one substance) why would a Son have an ressurected body and his Father be the rank of a devil with no resurrected body? Is not Heavenly Father Greater than all of us? The Father walked in the Garden of Eden with Adam! Spirits don't walk
It the Father and Son, Holy Ghost.
Well then, since we are all Believing Christians, you will surely count us all in who post here, and cease all your ruminations about spurious conversion among us, and your tortuous reasoning about how believers are not believing.
If you don't, it mattereth not, for God is our judge. (How come not a word about His role in our judgment and salvation other than "whacking"? Not even a "God willing" in acknowledgement of His sovereignty?)
I am sure that John Calvin, whether in heaven or hell now (hopefully the former), is now a staunch defender of religious freedom, a staunch opponent of burning heretics at the stake, greatly rejoices in our God-given free will (properly understood), sits beside you many a day, and begs you to hearken to the tender remonstrances of us free-willers.
bwahahahahahahah
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