The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Fury]

Dave? Are you so dense you don't know what the gift of God is? He sent his son that whosoever believes on Him will have eternal life. You've turned your entire belief system into a little round wafer.

The Father did send the Son to die for us, so that we may have eternal life. We have some obligations in this matter as well - it is a covenant between God and us.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

You told me to quote these verses, and I did. I have the KJV in front of me. Now if you want to discuss them, you will first have to explain what ypou are getting at.

Go back and look. Don't play dumb.

[gracebeliever]

The word that Paul uses is anamnesis.

Thanks for the reply. That's the correct word, but you provided a fuller interpretation.

[OLD REGGIE]

You stopped your quote, John 6:53, early and thus missed the context. John 6:63 says, "It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life." Also read verse 46. So it's God's Word that gives life, not drinking wine and pretending it's blood. The entire 6th chapter is about eating the Passover and its broader meaning in Christ fulfilling or being the Passover sacrifice. Hence the focus on food and drink since that was the topic of the day. Is this much different that Christ's comments regarding "living water" to the woman at the well in John 4:13,14?

For some time I thought verse 63 must be missing from the RC Bibles. When I found it wasn't missing I was confused until SpinningDave explained it really was a seperate, unconnected thought. Just ask him.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Boy, you boys are full of it today:)

Has any of you happened to look out side and see that it is spring time.

This is the day the Lord has made, rejoice and be glad in it:)

Becky

[SoothingDave]

For some time I thought verse 63 must be missing from the RC Bibles. When I found it wasn't missing I was confused until SpinningDave explained it really was a seperate, unconnected thought. Just ask him.

Ya know, you're welcome to explain why words being "spirit and life" mean that they are not to be taken literally.

That would be helpful.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Has any of you happened to look out side and see that it is spring time.

Last time I looked out it was pouring down rain.

This is the day the Lord has made, rejoice and be glad in it:)

Amen.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Which Does imply "if you do not poo or pee on the table you do not make a terrible mess." Hmm?

If you poo on the table you make a mess.

If you pee on the table you make a mess.

If you poo and pee on the table you make a mess.

Hmmmmmmmmmm Hmmmmmmmmmmm

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Dave the day you die, you will still be a catholic no matter what anyone tells you, you will never turn from the catholic faith, is that about right?

BigMack

[malakhi]

I'll bite on your can of worms. First, please explain what you mean by "take."

That the consecration has the actual consequence of, as the Catholics believe, transforming the bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Jesus.

[trad_anglican]

That's the correct word, but you provided a fuller interpretation.

A fuller interpretation than what?

[malakhi]

I figured I might get this response. Then your only alternative is to buy a really beat up car and just back up without looking. They'll move out of the way. ;-)

The first rule of driving: the beater always has the right of way.

[al_c]

Boy, you boys are full of it today:)

My my ... what brought this on?

Has any of you happened to look out side and see that it is spring time.

Yeah, I've managed to look out one of the windows while trapped inside at my job. And you know what? We've moved beyond Spring ... it's hotter than hell out there!

This is the day the Lord has made, rejoice and be glad in it:)

Amen to that, sister!!! :o)

[SoothingDave]

Dave the day you die, you will still be a catholic no matter what anyone tells you, you will never turn from the catholic faith, is that about right?

It would take a Damascus type event. I have simply not seen any convincing arguments for abandoning the Catholic faith.

If I were to move in any direction it would probably be like angelo, to the notion that a God who is One, simply one, makes sense.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

(Reg) What the hell are you talking about? Did I miss something? Would you care to enlighten me on what I responded to and what you are responding to? Are they the same thing?

You said that my belief that the Body of Christ received during Communion contains His Blood is not found in Scripture. I showed otherwise, by pointing out to you that there was a resurrection and Jesus' Body and Blood are no longer seperate.

You must be given credit for imagination. Are we now to believe that the ressurection took place before the Passover? Did jesus say "after the ressurection" or was he speaking in the present tense?

Am I to assume you are ignoring Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11, and basing your "belief" on something after the ressurection?

[IMRight]

Try again. That translates into

if you eat the bread unworthily you sin against the body and blood
if you drink the blood unworthily you sin against the body and blood
if you eat and drink unworthily you sin against the body and blood

That doesn't reflect the argument. It does not refute "if you don't eat the bread or wine unworthily you do not sin against the body and the blood"
Please insert another 50cents and play again. :)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

angelo al_c said "it's hotter than hell out there!" :)

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

You must be given credit for imagination. Are we now to believe that the ressurection took place before the Passover? Did jesus say "after the ressurection" or was he speaking in the present tense?

Jesus is Risen. Alleluia! His body is glorified. Don't you see this?

If Jesus at the Last Supper could not hold Himself in His Hands, what kind of deity is that?

Am I to assume you are ignoring Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11, and basing your "belief" on something after the ressurection?

You'll have to be more specific. I don't know what you are talking about.

What I am talking about is that when we celebrate the Eucharist we receive from Heaven the Body and blood of Christ. This is not his everyday human body. It is his glorified body. He was risen! Alleluia!

This glorified Body is intact. the Blood and Body are not seperate. Do you think Jesus in Heaven right now is exsanguinated?

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

IMRight the day you die, you will still be a catholic no matter what anyone tells you, you will never turn from the catholic faith, is that about right?

BigMack

[trad_anglican]

That the consecration has the actual consequence of, as the Catholics believe, transforming the bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Jesus.

The eucharist is a corporate act of the Church, not an individual act of the officiant. His intent must be "to do what the Church does." An officiant who is not sanctioned by the Church cannot, by definition, do what the Church does. God certainly knows the difference. The consecration cannot "take" without the action of the Holy Spirit. There is no magic in the words.

For the same reason, a consecration cannot "take" if a priest in apostolic succession says the prayers and does the actions when he is alone. He has not done "what the Church does" in the eucharist because it is a corporate act of the Church, not an individual act of the priest.