The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Havoc]

You wouldn't highlight that word if you knew the full meaning of the underlying Greek word.

I know it and I would because I know it gives you no help.

[al_c]

Unfortunately, he's also had to, what with our temporary parking facilities and limited access, had to remind people that flipping off other drivers in the parking lot is not exactly good Christian behavior.

Can we borrow him one weekend? ;o)

While I've not witnessed any "birds" in our parking lot, I have sat in my parking space for long periods of time with my reverse lights glaring at all those cars that won't let me back out. And then there are the folks that park in the fire lanes even when there is parking available.

sigh

[SoothingDave]

I know it and I would because I know it gives you no help.

See the difference here? Catholics and sacramental Christians like Fury and Trad_anglican provide arguments.

You provide bluster.

SD

[malakhi]

There is no "physical change," that is, no change in any measureable way. There is the change whereby God becomes present. And this presence is in the form of bread which certainly is physical, in the sense that you can see it, touch it, etc.

I'll try this again, though I suspect we are now talking past each other. OK, there is no "physical change", but yet somehow God becomes present. In what manner is God present?

[IMRight]

Oh yes it does! The RC understanding is that Scripture is equal to Tradition

Sorry. The RC understanding is that Scripture and Tradition are the same thing. That they come from the same source through same church and for the same end (the kingdom of God). They are "=" in the sense that they are the same. They are not "=" in the sense that one could be greater than the other or that one could be right while the other is wrong. To ask "which is greater, Scripture or Tradition?" is not a question. It's like "which is greater, God or God?"

Do you think that Augustine felt that the Church had no authority in the matter?

[SoothingDave]

While I've not witnessed any "birds" in our parking lot, I have sat in my parking space for long periods of time with my reverse lights glaring at all those cars that won't let me back out.

Why don't you a)back in or b)park farther away, not so close to the point where cars back up?

SD

[Havoc]

I am pleased that you bring up the example of the preaching of the Holy Apostle Paul. He preached at a time when the Holy Gospels had not been set down in writing, and yet he preached the Gospel: the Gospel as fact and tradition predates the Gospels as written documents. It is precisely his behavior which the Church has continued emulating, and which you are objecting to by insisting on using a diminished canon of the Holy Scriptures as an axiom system.

First, where scripture is concerned, there are reasons somet things are called scripture and others are not. Scripture agrees with scripture. The paramount reason the Apocryphals are not scripture is that existing scripture has never agreed with the apocryphals.

Second, Paul spoke of traditions and named off that which he spoke of by name. His intention was to say whether you read my words or merely hear them, keep these things which I have taught you - being: a, b, c, d... Context means something. But when you're begging for any scrap that seems to support your conclusions, you'll chase your tail if you think it helps. Stop chasing your tail.

[SoothingDave]

I'll try this again, though I suspect we are now talking past each other. OK, there is no "physical change", but yet somehow God becomes present. In what manner is God present?

I suspect as well that this topic must come to a close.

There is no physical change that is, a change to the structure or makeup of the accidents. There is a change as God enters the physical world.

In what manner is God present? He is physically present. He is substantially present. But He is not present in a manner where science can find him, only where Faith can find Him.

What is it? It is Christ. Where is it? Right over there. It is tangible. You can hold it in your hands. But you can't measure it.

SD

[malakhi]

While I've not witnessed any "birds" in our parking lot, I have sat in my parking space for long periods of time with my reverse lights glaring at all those cars that won't let me back out. And then there are the folks that park in the fire lanes even when there is parking available.

I grew up in a rural area, and most of the people who went the the church we occasionally attended were farmers. After mass on Sunday, the pickup trucks would pull out of the church parking lot and across the street into the tavern parking lot. Of course, these guys were up at 4:00 a.m. to milk the cows!

Many years later my brother and a friend of his were asked to help clean out the rectory after the priest rather suddenly was retired. They found stacks and stacks of homosexual pornographic magazines. Makes me wonder if he is one of those retired priests whose records have been requested by the DA...

[Fury]

You provide bluster.

We could have a really good discussion on the Greek and the meanings behind it, yet Havoc wants no part of it for some reason, from any quarter. I'm just starting to learn Latin from my Priest (he teaches it in high school) and I am amazed how direct and to the point in several key areas languages such as Latin and Greek are.

Ok, I dangled "are"... ;)

[SoothingDave]

I grew up in a rural area, and most of the people who went the the church we occasionally attended were farmers. After mass on Sunday, the pickup trucks would pull out of the church parking lot and across the street into the tavern parking lot. Of course, these guys were up at 4:00 a.m. to milk the cows!

Here in PA, we have laws against that kind of thing. You can't locate a bar that close to a Church. ;-)

Many years later my brother and a friend of his were asked to help clean out the rectory after the priest rather suddenly was retired. They found stacks and stacks of homosexual pornographic magazines. Makes me wonder if he is one of those retired priests whose records have been requested by the DA...

Could be.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

1. He was the one of the first and best known of those who made a break with the Church

Another of your historical gems. Have you heard of John Hus? Have you heard of John Wycliffe? Have you heard of the many, many thousands of "heretics" who "perished" prior to the time of Luther?

Why don't you just give up on your "history"? You aren't doing too well with it.

[malakhi]

There is no physical change... In what manner is God present? He is physically present.

OK, I give up. Next? ;o)

[SoothingDave]

I'm just starting to learn Latin from my Priest (he teaches it in high school) and I am amazed how direct and to the point in several key areas languages such as Latin and Greek are.

Ok, I dangled "are"... ;)

I don't think there is a prohibition against dangling verbs, just participles and prepositions. Latin is interesting in that the word order spoken has absolutely no bearing on the meaning. Unlike English which is almost the opposite.

I should probably try to learn Latin someday, but with the baby, this isn't a good time. The last time I traveled I read half a book in one night. And have managed about three pages since then.

I have resigned myself to gleaning from What Does the Prayer Really Say?

SD

[RobbyS]

#7256 If you are talking about infrequent communion, this was a problem before the Reformation, and One of Luther's salutary reforms was to encourage it. The Jansenists, of course, discouraged it, and frequent communion only came after St. Pius X. The problem with the present approach is that it minimizes the need to approach it reverently and with a proper disposition. Some Catholics don't even know why we can't have open communion. It seems that people go to extremes: from scupulosity to carelessness.

[trad_anglican]

What is it? It is Christ. Where is it? Right over there. It is tangible. You can hold it in your hands. But you can't measure it.

'Twas God the word that spake it,
He took the Bread and brake it;
And what the word did make it;
That I believe, and take it.'

Would you say that this sums it up?

[Uri’el-2012]

SoothingDave; al_c; ALL

Which trumps?

The Tradition of Cardinals covering up the scandal of child abuse

or

the Word of G-d to those who sanction perversion.

See Romans 1:20-32; paying particular attention to the last verse.

Romans 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worth while to retain
the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
Romans 1:29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil,
greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
Romans 1:30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they
invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
Romans 1:31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Romans 1:32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who
do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do
these very things but also approve of those who practise them.

chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>

[OLD REGGIE]

We believe the eucharist is Jesus's Body, but not His earthly body, rather his glorified resurrected body. He is no longer seperated Body from Blood. Therefore his Body and Blood are not seperate.

How was this belief invented? Was it "revealed tradition" or the "magisterium"? It certainly isn't from Scripture.

[Havoc]

You could knock me over with a feather. ;-)

I knew you were a lightweight.. :)

[RobbyS]

The Catholic position is that Scripture and Tradition are the same. Each is the product of the seed that is the Gospel.