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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)
Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; michaeldobbs
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To: JHavard
I remember some of the reasons, but can't for the life of me remember the scripture, please help me out.

Remember the verse where the KJV differs from the others? From 1 Cor, I believe. Whoever eats OR drinks unworthily is guilty of the Body AND Blood of the Lord.

Ring a bell?

SD

7,241 posted on 04/30/2002 11:05:45 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: gracebeliever
Clearly metaphors? No.

They were not committing a sacrilege. Lev 17:14 discusses Jew's taking of blood. John 6:53-58 make it proper to drink the blood of the Victim to receive life.

Christ in the Gospel of John is the Word of life, another metaphor. "Eat" is used euphemistically throughout Scripture. Eat can refer to devouring the Word of God. A good example is the little scroll Ezekial ate in Ezek. 2:8 and 3:1ff. What Isaiah speaks of eating that which is good in Isa. 55:2 is the Word of God. Eating of the Bread of Life is getting into the Word of God in Christ. An instructive verse that is usually overlooked in the midst of the passage where Jesus describes Himself as the Bread from heaven is John 6:45, which states "every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." That's how a person ate and came to Christ, by the Word of God. That's also just like Romans 10:17, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

The language used for "eat" is throughout the Bible, but the nowhere in the NT is one of the many words used for "eat" used in conjunction with eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ. John uses in John 6:53-58 the only form of eat that refers to mastication as opposed to general eating. The Greek word is trogo (sorry, can't get the diacritics to show up) which is used to depict one who is engaging in the process of masticating the food he is consuming. Why did John not use the more generic word for eating - phago? Because there was to be no doubt about what we were to do. And note that phago and trogon were not interchanged in verses 53-58. I believe there can be no doubt as to what John met.

Jesus indicated that what we call communion, or the eucharist, is to be a "remembrance." He did not say it was to be a rite, ceremony, sacrament, or any other religious term. Remembrance has special meaning to Jews in that in remembering they identify with the event. A remembrance of what Christ did for us on the cross by His body and blood and what that affected for us is what we're to celebrate and remember. Unfortunately religion has turned this remembrance into something far different than what Christ intended.

Luke 22:19 uses the Greek word anamnesis ("remembrance") which is used in connection with the sacrifice, at the least within a context that is sacrificial in nature. When Christ tells the apostles to "... do this in remembrance of me...", it is more than a commemoration of the Last Supper that Christ is referring to.

St. Paul drives that points home:

24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me.
25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
- 1 Cor 11:24-25 (DRB)

Looking at the construct of Luke 22:19, we can see that anamnesis refers to sacrifice:

19 And taking bread, he gave thanks and brake and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.
- Luke 22:19 (DRB)

The sentence "This is my body, which is given for you" is DIRECTLY connected to the command "DO THIS" in the second sentence.

Please review the Greek used in Matthew, Mark and Luke in regards to the Last Supper. None used Greek words to describe the Last Supper that refer only to the REMEMBRANCE of the events. There are *9* different Greek words which refer to some type of remembrance, but the only one used, anamnesis, has an exclusively sacrificial connotation. Why did Luke not choose to use mnemosunan? Because he wanted to memorialize the consecration for the serious act of sacrafice that it was.

Please read 1 Cor 10 and tell me if you believe that the Eucharist is eschatological salvation or judgment or both. St. Paul warned the Corinthians to become much more serious about the Eucharist, to treat it as a holy meal, and if they do not, they will be profaning something very holy and suffer the same fates as recounted in Exodus 32, Numbers 25, Numbers 21.

John 6 makes clear what Jesus said we must do "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood".

7,242 posted on 04/30/2002 11:05:46 AM PDT by Fury
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To: SoothingDave
I don't find the philosophical categories of "substance" and "accident" particularly useful.

No? Are we limited then to just what we can measure?

No, the problem I have with it is that "substance" has a number of conflicting definitions.

That which underlies all outward manifestations; substratum; the permanent subject or cause of phenomena, whether material or spiritual; that in which properties inhere; that which is real, in distinction from that which is apparent; the abiding part of any existence, in distinction from any accident; that which constitutes anything what it is; real or existing essence.

Body; matter; material of which a thing is made; hence, substantiality; solidity; firmness

The first is more metaphysical, the second is clearly physical.

I prefer Kant's thing-in-itself and thing-as-it-appears. I think it more clearly delineates the difference between that which can be known and that which is empirically unknowable.

7,243 posted on 04/30/2002 11:06:45 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: SoothingDave
The Eucharistic theology we have is the one thing that so totally seperates us from all other Western churches. It is the reason for the accusations of us being the Great Harlot, etc.

Correction - it is one of the Manifold reasons that title hangs over the Catholic Church.

If the Catholic Church is not right about God being Physicaly Present in the Eucharist, then we are nothing but devious idolators, lost forever in our crazy theology. If it is God, then bow down. If it is not, then you are violating the 2nd commandment.

And the catholic church is wrong about it.

7,244 posted on 04/30/2002 11:07:59 AM PDT by Havoc
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To: JHavard
But, but, but, the question wasn't about what I believe, it was about what you believe, if you want to know mine, I'll tell you after you show me the scripture I asked for

I can't because I don't have a bible with me. I think you have been given a couple verses that said essentially that someone was guilty of the "body and blood" of Christ, though only bread was involved? I haven't done any study on the matter so I am "outgunned".

I asked what you believe because it seems that some here do not accept that there is scriptural support for the real presense to begin with. You seem to be saying that there is, but that there is no support for taking only one element at communion. Is the argument merely that we are inconsistent? Or are you saying that the correct course would be to take bread and wine as body and blood?

7,245 posted on 04/30/2002 11:11:01 AM PDT by IMRight
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To: angelo
Hi Angelo! I lurk around every now and then. Trouble is when I get involved in discussions, I tend to neglect my business. However some topics are too intriguing.
7,246 posted on 04/30/2002 11:11:25 AM PDT by gracebeliever
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To: SoothingDave
In the same way, God's physical presence in the Eucharist in no way removes his omnipresence.

Huh? I thought you said "We don't teach that a physical change happens." If no physical change happens, then how can God be physically present there?

7,247 posted on 04/30/2002 11:12:01 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: IMRight;JHavard
Has nobody said that it is our belief that both elements contain the body and blood of Christ?

What makes it your belief that "both elements contain the body and blood of Christ"?

Luke 22:
19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

Did Jesus say the bread was both his body and blood?

20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Did Jesus say the cup (wine) was both his blood and his body?

What did Jesus say to cause you to believe "both elements contain the body and blood of Christ"?
7,248 posted on 04/30/2002 11:12:48 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE
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To: OLD REGGIE
but, I'd be willing to accept the definition of the Authority of Scripture by Augustine. Would You?

I have not read it from a textbook or direct source, but I believe I have seen you post it before and have not had a problem with it. Is it your opinion that it contradicts the RC understanding of the role of Scripture? I tend to doubt it.

7,249 posted on 04/30/2002 11:13:54 AM PDT by IMRight
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To: JHavard
One reason why conservative Catholics have opposed the architectural reforms in Catholic Churches and the removal of the tabernacle from the "worship -space" (horrible term!!!) is that it diminishes the sense of reverence and of being in a Holy Place. It make us fear that the priests who perpetrate such changes are crypto-Lutherans or cryto- Calvinists or even, God forbid, liberals!

When I use the term "enthusiasm," I do mean the kind of physical or vocal activity one sees at a charismatic event, but what struck me palpably the first time I went to mass: the sudden and deep quiet that came over the congregation at the consecration. The coughing that one hears when a group is required to stay quiet, such as one witnesses at a concert, and which was going on up to that moment, stopped and the quiet I mentioned descended continued for some minutes, as when everyone in a group suddenly becomes absorbed in what is happening. I have not witnessed this is a Presbyterian, Baptist, or Methodist service. although I have seen it in in Lutheran and Episcopal services.

At bottom, it depends on whether one believes or at least suspends disbelief in the Real Presence. One will act in taking communion in accordance with one's belief about its meaning. As to Catholic who actually receive the Sacrament, I have noticed a change in attitude as an increasingly large percentage of those attending go to communion. (A few years ago I saw some idiot chewing gum on his way to communion!) It used be that many held back, out of a feeling of unworthiness, and that those who went were manifestly more "ready" to receive. As for "factory"-like manner, I was sometimes--in the old days--alarmed to see some of the priests deposit the Host on tongues of the communicants is a very cavalier manner, in great contrast with the demeanor of the people receiving.

7,250 posted on 04/30/2002 11:14:20 AM PDT by RobbyS
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To: angelo
you gots one of those freepmails.
7,251 posted on 04/30/2002 11:14:27 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: angelo
I prefer Kant's thing-in-itself and thing-as-it-appears. I think it more clearly delineates the difference between that which can be known and that which is empirically unknowable.

OK, then. Then your cat is the thing-in-itself, but the thing-as-it-appears is a dog.

SD

7,252 posted on 04/30/2002 11:14:32 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Them bad old catholics, come to us angelo, your getting sleepy, come to us angelo....sleepy....come to us....slee......come to........ BigMack

#55? ;o)

7,253 posted on 04/30/2002 11:15:29 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: angelo
In the same way, God's physical presence in the Eucharist in no way removes his omnipresence.

Huh? I thought you said "We don't teach that a physical change happens." If no physical change happens, then how can God be physically present there?

There is no "physical change," that is, no change in any measureable way. There is the change whereby God becomes present. And this presence is in the form of bread which certainly is physical, in the sense that you can see it, touch it, etc.

What is it? It is Christ. Where is it? Right there.

SD

7,254 posted on 04/30/2002 11:16:36 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Havoc
And the catholic church is wrong about it.

You could knock me over with a feather. ;-)

SD

7,255 posted on 04/30/2002 11:17:29 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: RobbyS
It used be that many held back, out of a feeling of unworthiness, and that those who went were manifestly more "ready" to receive.

200 years ago this was the major problem in the Church -- people having too much respect for the Sacrament.

SD

7,256 posted on 04/30/2002 11:19:54 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: JHavard
Reggie, may I borrow your spinning tiger? (^g^) JH

Done. I just mailed it to you.
7,257 posted on 04/30/2002 11:21:35 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE
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To: SoothingDave
What it comes down to is that you deny that Jesus intended his followers to actually do what he did, only to play act what he did.

Hey, I've got a whole new can of worms to open up!

Why do you think that one has to be ordained in the line of apostolic succession for the consecration of the bread and wine to "take"?


7,258 posted on 04/30/2002 11:22:04 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: SoothingDave, Havoc
And the catholic church is wrong about it.

You could knock me over with a feather. ;-)

I don't have a clue about what Dave is saying here, anybody out there make any thing of this, someone tell me what Dave is talking about here, I got a $1.00 bill here if anyone can tell me what Dave is talking about :)

BigMack

7,259 posted on 04/30/2002 11:23:40 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: SoothingDave
The essential elements are the same. Like I already explained. We don't use the same caterer that Jesus did. We dont' all sit at one big table. We don't wear sandals and robes.

But we do repeat His words and use the same elements of bread and wine.

One more time. Please explain "exactly". Not the dictionary definition. The SD definition.
7,260 posted on 04/30/2002 11:24:40 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE
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