The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[SoothingDave]

Hockey was not big in Wisconsin when I was growing up, and there still isn't an NHL team here. Youth hockey is much bigger than it used to be (one of my nephews plays), but since I didn't grow up on it, I never developed an interest.

How old were you when you left Michigan?

Hockey is a difficult sport to understand, left to your own devices. You need to watch it with someone who understands it and can explain what is going on.

And it is absolutely irresistable to watch live. TV does not do justice to the speed and majesty of the game.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

A few thoughts, in no particular order.

Ok.

• Jesus believed that he was the messiah.

I agree. I would take it a step further and say that Jesus knew he was the messiah. He had the best view of all His miracles. He heard the voice out of heaven in the Jordan when baptised. He was there with Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration. He was there when he rose from the grave. :-)

• There were two types of messianic "candidates" in 1st century Judaism. One type sought to free Judea from Roman rule and to restore the earthly kingdom of David (bar Kokhba, for example). The other sought a "new heaven and new earth" -- the kingdom of God -- that would be brought about by God's intervention rather than by force of arms. Jesus was of the second type.

I think Jesus was both types. He will usher in a new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem after the athid Lavo (messianic age) which is at the end of Olam Hazeh (present world/age). The athid lavo being the final 1,000 years of the 7,000 year redemptive plan according to the sages. This 1,000 years is the restoration of the "earthly kingdom". Referred to by Christians as the "Millineal reign".

• Jesus's disciples believed in his resurrection and imminent return.

So have his disciples throughout all generations. And when you compare these 7,000 years to eternity, there were and are right.

• The early Nazarene community contained both pacifists (who thought that all they had to do was to await the imminent return of Jesus) and the activists (who thought that they needed to continue the struggle against Rome).

Agree.

• As long as the Nazarenes believed in Jesus as a human messiah, they were not believing anything that was outside the bounds of Pharisaic Judaism. Even a belief in Jesus's resurrection and return would not have divided them from non-Nazarene Judaism.

A belief in the resurrection and return qualifies Him as the Son of God with diety. I believe your use of the term "yesh", which actually means salvation in the hebrew, would qualify as diety as well. For no human alone is able to save. This concept may perhaps seem outside the bounds of Pharisaic Judaism but not Biblical Judaism.

• The Nazarenes and the Pharisees actually got along well. The Nazarenes did have problems with the temple Sadducees and the high priest.

Agreed.

• Some of the players: pacifist and activist Nazarenes. Pacifist and activist Pharisees. The Essenes, who were an opposition group of Sadducees. The Herodians, who were of a mixed Jewish and Edomite background, and who collaborated with the Romans. And the temple Sadducees and the high priest, who were also Roman collaborators.

Just so we all know its you that insinuated the nasty word "hellenization" in the above and not me. :-)

• The gospels were written after Paul's epistles.

I assume this is correct, I haven't really looked into it.

• Galatians is the most important book in the Christian canon.

I agree in that it confuses and has been taken out of contest by most.

[OLD REGGIE]

Interesting. Boston has sent it's "Boston Trained" Bishops all over the United States. Wouldn't it open a can of worms if those diocese's sued Boston too?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Calif. diocese sues Boston Archdiocese
Alleges officials hid Shanley's past
By Larry B. Stammer, Los Angeles Times, 4/2/2003

The Roman Catholic Diocese of San Bernardino, Calif., sued the Archdiocese of Boston yesterday, alleging that Boston officials hid the history of sexual molestation by former priest Paul Shanley when he moved to California.

The lawsuit, filed in San Bernardino County Superior Court, is believed to mark the first time that one US Catholic diocese has sued another in civil court, according to both dioceses. As such it is a further indication of how the sex-abuse scandal has moved through the Catholic Church, overturning long-established customs.

A spokesman for the US Conference of Catholic Bishops in Washington called the lawsuit, at the least, a historic ''rarity.''

The lawsuit accuses Catholic officials in Boston of engaging in ''misrepresentations and suppression of information'' as well as ''active misconduct and negligence'' in hiding the background of Shanley, who has been accused of molesting boys since 1967. He moved to San Bernardino in 1990 and has been accused in a civil lawsuit of assaulting at least one teenager while there.

In that lawsuit, Kevin English has sought damages from both dioceses, contending he was abused starting when he was 17. San Bernardino officials say that they have not turned up evidence to corroborate English's claims so far, but that a settlement could nonetheless cost upward of $12 million. That would be enough to push the diocese ''to the brink of bankruptcy,'' said the Rev. Howard Lincoln, spokesman for the diocese.

The lawsuit aims to ensure that whatever amount English is paid comes from Boston, not San Bernardino.

''We should not have to pay for Boston's mistake,'' Lincoln said.

Although the Roman Catholic Church is a worldwide organization with an international hierarchy, each diocese is treated as a separate entity with its own assets and income.

In Boston, Donna M. Morrissey, spokeswoman for the archdiocese, said officials had not seen the lawsuit and would not comment.

Others said the case shows that internal fractures among the nation's bishops, which have until now been confined to closed-door meetings, increasingly are becoming public.

The lawsuit ''shows how deeply the church has been affected'' by the sex-abuse scandal, said the Rev. Thomas Rausch, chairman of the theology department at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles.

The scandal is eroding ''the communion that unites the dioceses together as one church in the United States,'' he said.

Under the church's internal rules, known as canon law, a diocese has recourse to church courts to resolve disputes with other dioceses. Those proceedings would be private. The decision to file a lawsuit in civil court makes a public statement, said lawyer William Light, who represents English.

''I tend to think . . . the reason they chose this one [was] to put them in a better light publicly,'' Light said. The abuse English suffered was ''extremely reprehensible,'' he said.

If the case goes to trial, ''we think a jury would agree with us and award substantial sums to compensate Kevin for the things he had to endure, literally, at the hands of Father Shanley and those Father Shanley put in the way to harm Kevin,'' Light said.

Lincoln said the lawsuit was ''intended to be a serious message'' by San Bernardino Bishop Gerald R. Barnes to the Boston Archdiocese.

''We feel our position is very strong, and we hope that Boston resolves this matter and indemnifies us,'' he said.

''The church teaches us to treat each other with love, dignity, and respect,'' Lincoln said. ''That means allowing members of the church to take responsibility for their actions.''

Documents that have been released in other lawsuits against the Boston Archdiocese show that church officials there knew that Shanley had a history of sexual abuse and, at one point, he had advocated sex between men and boys. The revelation that the archdiocese withheld information about Shanley's sexual history was a key factor that led to the resignation of Cardinal Bernard Law as archbishop of Boston in December. Before he resigned, Law personally apologized to the San Bernardino bishop.

The San Bernardino Diocese would not have permitted Shanley to serve had it known the truth about him, officials of the diocese said.

This story ran on page A1 of the Boston Globe on 4/2/2003.

© Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.

[al_c]

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Wednesday, April 02, 2003
Lenten Weekday

First Reading: Responsorial Psalm: Gospel:

Isaiah 49:8-15 Psalm 145:8-9, 13-14, 17-18 John 5:17-30 And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols. And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh.  -- Ezechiel xxxvi. 25,26

The following is, as usual, from The Word Among Us:

Try to imagine that you are in the crowd who has just witnessed Jesus healing the paralyzed man by the pool of Bethesda. Such a miracle grabs your attention. But now, you hear Jesus refer to God as the Father who "raises the dead and gives them life," and to himself as the Son who also "gives life" and who will carry out "all judgment" on the Father's behalf (John 5:21-22). Your Jewish tradition teaches that only God raises the dead, gives life, and judges. So you wonder, who is this Jesus? Is he really claiming to be God? Could he be the promised Messiah? Or is he just a fake or a lunatic?

Two thousand years later, the question remains: Who is Jesus? The revelation by the power of the Holy Spirit, the witness of the Church's beliefs and traditions, the historical evidence--everything points us in the right direction, but it doesn't exempt us from answering the question for ourselves. Each of us must ask: Do I believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the promised one, the Son of God, "one in being with the Father"? Do I believe that he "died and rose again in accordance with the Scriptures" and that now he is seated at God's right hand? Do I believe that Jesus wants to share his very life with me and have a personal relationship with me through the power of his Spirit?

Lent is a time to focus anew on the death and resurrection of Jesus. It's the season for a fresh look at Jesus' unswerving obedience to the Father's plan to rescue and redeem us. Only by believing with all our hearts that Jesus is who he says he is will we even begin to understand this great plan of salvation.

This Lent, make Jesus the Lord of your life in a deeper way. Take the next step in expressing your faith that he is truly your Savior and that his promises are true. Depend on him, hope in him, and see for yourself what he can do.

"Jesus, you are the Son of God sent by the Father to raise the dead and give life. I believe that you are living and active in my life now, and that one day I will see you face to face."

----------

God bless.

AC

[malakhi]

Oh, just the usual heavy-handed threats and actions against the formation of a union, from the progressives who preach "social justice."

What a joke. Liberals are such hypocrites.

[malakhi]

How old were you when you left Michigan?

Four years, eight months.

Hockey is a difficult sport to understand, left to your own devices.

Can't be any harder than understanding the balk, the strike zone, and the infield fly rule! ;o)

And it is absolutely irresistable to watch live. TV does not do justice to the speed and majesty of the game.

I've seen my nephew play, and that was fun to watch. Definitely better than watching a televised game. Hockey is definitely not made for TV.

[OLD REGGIE]

What a joke. Liberals are such hypocrites.

I wish I had copied the article, but I recently read that the national union which represents the Boston janitors, will not allow their own staff to organize a union.

[SoothingDave]

What a joke. Liberals are such hypocrites.

I've got a better one. The Wanderer reports that the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force is phasing out health insurance for the "partners" of its employees. Turns out it's too expensive.

Nevermind that when they campaign to force other businesses to offer such benefits they pooh-pooh such economic concerns.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Four years, eight months.

For some reason I thought you were like in your teens or so when this happened.

SD

[malakhi]

A belief in the resurrection and return qualifies Him as the Son of God with diety.

I don't see this as necessarily the case. I think God could resurrect and return anyone he wanted, whether the person was God or just a man. I also think that "Son of God" does not necessarily imply deity.

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. (Romans 8:14)

Not saying that the other interpretations are not possible, only that there are alternative ways of looking at it.

For no human alone is able to save. This concept may perhaps seem outside the bounds of Pharisaic Judaism but not Biblical Judaism.

I think it depends on what you mean by "save", here.

Just so we all know its you that insinuated the nasty word "hellenization" in the above and not me. :-)

There is no question about it. Judea was occupied by the Romans. The kings/governors and the high priests served at the pleasure of the Romans. They were chosen because they were willing to collaborate. Most of the rest of the population -- the lesser priests, the Pharisees, the typical Shlomo on the street -- either endured Roman rule or in some way worked to oppose it.

[malakhi]

I think the San Bernardino diocese has a good case.

The San Bernardino Diocese would not have permitted Shanley to serve had it known the truth about him, officials of the diocese said.

Of course, if the Boston Archdiocese could demonstrate that San Bernardino did permit priests to serve, even with knowledge of indiscretions, it could undermine San Bernardino's case.

This could get very interesting.

[malakhi]

For some reason I thought you were like in your teens or so when this happened.

I spent a great deal of time visiting back there during Christmas and summer vacations. And I lived there for a year after I graduated from college.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I don't see this as necessarily the case. I think God could resurrect and return anyone he wanted, whether the person was God or just a man. I also think that "Son of God" does not necessarily imply deity.

I know you don't and its true God can resurect and return anyone. I believe the Messiah has diety based upon OT scripture specifically the ones you've attempted to refute already, such as "Immanuel" and "virgin" and also those 4 books of intertestimal writings that ascribe diety to the Messiah. These were written well before Jesus arrived and qualify as pre-christian writings. Namely, Enoch chapters 37-71, Psalms of Solomon, The Damascus Document, 4 Ezra & 2 Baruch. I'd still be interested in the official Rabinical stance on these.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

oops I meant 5 not 4.

[OLD REGGIE]

I think the San Bernardino diocese has a good case.

Maybe so. I'd be surprised however if it ever went to a trial. I suspect they'll come to an understanding.

[malakhi]

From another thread:

To: Badabing Badaboom

This will be the end of all Islamic extremism throughout the world. Only through divine intervention could infidel troops with no plan, no food, no water, no ammunition, no gas, and not enough "boots on the ground" wipe out two entire Republican Guard Divisions in under 18 hours. "Allah" is undeniably part of the Coalition of the Willing. OBL, call your office.

14 posted on 04/02/2003 11:57 AM CST by kevao

[malakhi]

Namely, Enoch chapters 37-71, Psalms of Solomon, The Damascus Document, 4 Ezra & 2 Baruch. I'd still be interested in the official Rabinical stance on these.

The fact that they aren't in the canon should tell us something. But I lack familiarity with the works you mention. More to add to my reading list! ;o)

[malakhi]

My brother e-mailed me this:

A large group of Iraqi soldiers are moving down a road when they hear a voice call from behind a sand dune: "One United States Marine is better than ten Iraqis." The Iraqi commander quickly sends ten of his best soldiers over the dune, whereupon a gun battle breaks out and continues for a few minutes, then silence.

The voice then calls out: "One United States Marine is better than one hundred Iraqis!" Furious, the Iraqi commander sends his next best 100 troops over the dune and instantly a huge firefight commences. After 10 minutes of battle, again silence.

The American voice calls out again: "One United States Marine is better than one thousand Iraqis!" The enraged Iraqi commander musters one thousand fighters and sends them across the dune. Cannons, rockets and machine guns ring out as a huge battle is fought, then silence.

Eventually one wounded Iraqi soldier crawls back over the dune and with his dying breath tells his commander: "Don't send anymore men! It's a trap!

There's TWO of them!"

[al_c]

I've seen my nephew play, and that was fun to watch. Definitely better than watching a televised game.

I've been to a couple of Stars games and I agree that being there is way better than TV. By far, one of the most entertaining sporting events I've witnessed.

Hockey is definitely not made for TV.

Therein lies the problem with soccer in America. It's even less suited for our TV way of life.

[al_c]

I've got a better one. The Wanderer reports that the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force is phasing out health insurance for the "partners" of its employees. Turns out it's too expensive.

Here's one more. Seems that a gay Texas "couple" that got hitched in Vermont are in a bit of a jam. They want a divorce. Texas won't do it because we don't recognize that kind of crap here. Vermont won't do it because neither of them has lived in Vermont during the last year.

Ha! Serves 'em right, I say.