To: all creationoidsYes, there would definitely need to be more than one reality in order for a supernatural creature to dwell somewhere, before this universe existed. And in this other magical, mystical domain, miracles happen, and there are no physical laws, just magic, whims, prayers, etc. Presumably it is in this never-never-land that heaven and hell are located (although earlier generations, relying on the bible, thought heaven was literally "above" and hell "below" us).
Although it's a bore, I must point out that there is utterly no evidence for this extra domain of existence, but it definitely is necessary if one is to believe literally in the bible. And from this hidden domain of spirits, gods, devils, angels, lost souls, and god knows what else, frequent sortees are made into this, our own base realm, so that they (the magicians or whatever they are) can work their miracles and magic here, in our world, and we can never know if the pot will boil, if the bullet will fly straight, if the creek will rise, if the apple will fall, etc. We can know nothing because of the activities in this other universe. Being ignorant and powerless, our only hope is to pray for mercy. Yes, it's all quite clear to me. No wonder my computer requires frequent reboots.
Okay, let's see now ... the creationoid position, or so it seems, says there is no fixed objectively determinable reality. They even claim that scientists agree with this nonsense, all but evolutionists. And anyone who disagrees with SR [probably a reference to "Sting Ray"] is said to be satanic, marxist, etc. (this, notwithstanding ZERO evidence of marxism among us, but evidence is never a problem for a fanatic).
And creationoids claim that all evidence of evolution is faked (like Piltdown man) or it's missing entirely (fossils? what fossils?), evolution is junk science, a political ploy, etc. (I do, by the way, think "social science" is exactly what SR claims evolution to be, but this is off-thread.)
On the other side, we have a few brave souls trying to explain that reality DOES exist, it IS knowable, that evolution DOES have a huge foundation of easily verifyable evidence, that it DOES hang together rationally, and that although it seems to contradict scripture -- the principle objection, I fear -- it won't be the first time this has happened (thus the many references to Galileo and the solar system and the shape of the earth).
So where do we go from here? It's like Galileo offering the churchmen the opportunity to look through his telescope to see for themselves the moons of Jupiter, while they would refuse because they could not deal with the consequences.
This thread, like all of its kind that have gone before, is going nowhere because we have two clearly self-defined camps: those who understand and practice reason, and those who sling the vocabulary around when it suits them, but who either don't understand reason or who do understand it but repudiate it in favor of mysticism. And neither camp will change, so here we are.
173 Posted on 11/28/1999 04:45:37 PST by PatrickHenry