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Common Creationist Arguments - Pseudoscience
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/Pseudoscience.shtml ^

Posted on 03/13/2002 4:47:26 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Pseudoscience

Pseudoscience is a scientific-sounding argument which in fact has no scientific validity whatsoever. This type of argument is based on the fact that the average layperson knows so little about science that he or she is liable to judge a scientific argument solely on its style and presentation (eg- "does it sound scientific?", or "does it incorporate scientific-sounding terms?") for lack of any other method of judging its validity.

Suggested Tactics

This type of creationist argument is difficult for most people to defend against, unless they are fairly knowledgeable about science (that's why it's so popular with creationists- they may not know anything about science, but they're gambling that you don't either). In my case, I simply call upon my knowledge of certain basic scientific principles that I learned in university, but I can't instruct everyone to do this, since not everyone has a technical background.

Therefore, it's difficult for me to recommand tactics for laypeople to counteract this sort of argument, but we should keep in mind that creationist pseudoscience arguments are almost never generated out of the mind of the creationist himself. They all tend to come from the same widely distributed pool of creationist literature, which is one of the reasons that creationists all over the world tend to spout the same pseudoscience arguments. I can offer the following suggestions:

    Remember that if your opponent has no direct knowledge of the science involved, and is merely claiming truth because "I read it somewhere", this constitutes a fallacious appeal to authority. Point this out to him. One should always be able to explain the logic and science behind one's argument rather than simply making vague reference to an anonymous source.

    Since these arguments are actually second hand arguments, demand to see the original source for his claim. When you see the source, check the credentials of the author. If they aren't fraudulent, check up on the university where the author got his degree. Odds are that the degree is either honorary, or it comes from a cheap diploma mill (or worse yet, one of the many church-run schools set up expressly for the purpose of handing out degrees to creationists). If you don't have the resources to check up on universities, try looking up the Talk.Origins website at www.talkorigins.org, which maintains a list of discredited creationist "experts" and their bogus credentials.

Examples follow:

"Occam's Razor is a scientific principle which says that when faced with two theories, we should always choose the simplest theory. Evolution theory requires billions of years of chemical reactions, environmental effects, and genetic mutations. Creation theory simply says "God did it". Creation theory is obviously simpler, therefore Occam's Razor demands that we must select Creation theory on scientific grounds."

This is perhaps the single most moronic creationist idea I've ever heard (it's also been used to "prove" the existence of God, by arguing that the concept of God is much simpler than the study of science). It's a classic example of creationist pseudoscience. They learn the term "Occam's Razor" and they learn just enough about its definition to abuse it, but they make no effort whatsoever to learn its true meaning.

"Choose the simplest theory" is an oversimplification of the concept of Occam's Razor. The term is named after the 14th century philosopher and theologian William of Occam. It might strike some as strange that a scientific principle might have come from a theologian, but good scientists do not practice appeals to authority or ad hominem attacks. If an idea makes sense, it doesn't matter who it came from, and the universal acceptance of Occam's Razor is a perfect example of that philosophy.

In any case, he argued that we should never "multiply entities unnecessarily". In other words, cut out extraneous terms from an equation. He used that principle (which is really just an argument against redundancy) to show that it was impossible to deduce God's existence through reason alone, so one would have to take it purely on faith. The irony is that a theologian realized that there was no logical basis for God's existence more than 600 years ago but modern fundamentalists still can't figure it out, and actually use his name to "prove" the exact opposite of what he himself argued!

For those who cannot appreciate the simplicity of Occam's Razor in its original form, Isaac Newton restated it thusly: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances." In plain English, when faced with two scientific theories which make the same predictions, choose the simpler theory. Or, as Stephen Hawking put it: "Cut out all the features of the theory which cannot be observed." (taken from A Brief History of Time).

Like all scientific principles, Occam's Razor is accepted not because William of Occam said it, but because it makes sense. You don't need to appeal to authority or take its validity on faith. If you are faced with two competing theories between which you have no other method of deciding, is it not obvious that the theory containing extra or unverifiable terms must therefore contain redundancies? The fact that the simpler theory can accomplish the same descriptive and predictive feats while utilizing fewer terms and not relying on unverifiable or unobservable phenomena is evidence of superiority.

Consider the analogy of two mechanical devices for making widgets. Both perform exactly the same function. In repeated, exhaustive tests, both are shown to produce exactly the same quality of widget, at the same rate, with the same raw materials. Both produce the same amount of waste. Both consume the same amount of electrical power. They cost the same. In other words, their performance is identical in every measurable way. The only noticeable difference is that device #1 is much simpler than device #2. It contains fewer components and mechanisms, and its operating principle is therefore simpler. Which one would you choose?

Suppose the salesman for device #2 is quite upset that you are leaning toward device #1, and he promises to do better. The next day, he returns with a new device (we'll call it device #3) which is completely sealed in black plastic (the classic "black box"). He says it's the latest, most advanced widget-making machine in the world. You feed it electricity and raw materials, and it spits out widgets. Its performance is no different from device #1 and device #2, but it is not user servicable. You can't see inside to figure out how it works, and the salesman refuses to let you see diagrams or schematics, ostensibly because the operation of the machine is beyond both your intellectual capacity and his. The salesman argues that device #3 is actually simpler than both device #1 and #2 because it has just one component: the black box. Does this make sense to you? Again, which device would you choose?

Occam's Razor is merely a name given to a logical and intuitively obvious thought process of eliminating redundancies. It cannot be used to choose between competing theories whose predictions are vastly different, any more than the simplicity of a drill press can be used to prove that it's superior to a fighter plane. Now that we are equipped with an understanding of the reasoning behind Occam's Razor, we can list some of the reasons that it cannot be used to support either creationism or the existence of God:

  1. Occam's Razor is a method of choosing between competing scientific theories. It is irrelevant when comparing a scientific theory to the concept of God or creationism because God and creationism are not scientific theories. There are no objective terms in the concept of God. No equations. No mechanisms. No limits. No methods through which it can be used to predict the outcome of natural processes. No methods through which it can be tested, or disproven. The concept of God is actually the antithesis of a scientific theory, in that one resorts to the divine only when one's reason has either failed or been voluntarily suppressed. In the analogy above, Occam's Razor was used to evaluate a pair of machines. It couldn't be used to evaluate a machine versus, say, a piece of music.

  2. "God" is actually not a "simpler theory" than science. "God" is merely a three-letter name which is affixed to a deity whose machinations are supposedly so complex that they are beyond mortal comprehension! If God's methods are inscrutable and incomprehensible to humans (as claimed in the Bible and by all Christians), then what business does anyone have claiming that they are "simpler" than a theory which humans can understand? In the analogy above, the concept of God is very much like the "black box". The salesman may argue that it's simpler because it's a nice smooth black box instead of a set of gears and motors, but that's a childish superficiality at best, and a bald-faced lie at worst.

  3. Occam's Razor is not invoked unless the competing theories make identical predictions. It is a method of eliminating redundancies, as William of Occam first reasoned, and it only applies when the performance of the competing theories is identical. When two theories make vastly different predictions (as is the case with science and Biblical literalism), then Occam's Razor is completely irrelevant. In the analogy above, Occam's Razor was used to evaluate a pair of machines whose performance was identical. If the two machines made widgets of vastly different characteristics, Occam's Razor would be irrelevant.

The use of Occam's Razor to "prove" the existence of God or the validity of Biblical literalism is a classic example of creationist pseudoscience, because it is so emblematic of their method: take a real principle and grossly misinterpret it to mean the exact opposite of what it truly means.

"The second law of thermodynamics makes evolution impossible. It states that complexity cannot be spontaneously created, so it is impossible for natural processes to create a complex organism from a simple organism!"

This is one of the oldest, and most popular creationist pseudoscience arguments. It's been kicking around for more than a century, thanks to general public ignorance of thermodynamics. In fact, it's wrong on so many levels that it's hard to know where to start! Perhaps we should start at the beginning, with the definition of the second law of thermodynamics. According to my engineering thermodynamics textbook, the second law of thermodynamics has two basic postulates:

  1. All physical processes create entropy (microscopic disorder).

  2. The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease, ie- entropy can be created but not destroyed.

That's a lot different from "complexity cannot be spontaneously created", isn't it? Big surprise- creationists don't know anything about thermodynamics. Now that we've established their bizarre misconception about the second law of thermodynamics, we should try to understand what strange mental contortions were necessary to go from "the entropy of a closed system cannot decrease" to "complexity cannot be spontaneously created."

Upon further questioning, creationists invariably reveal the following beliefs about the second law:

  1. "The entropy of a living organism can't decrease."

  2. "The creation of complexity requires the destruction of entropy."

  3. "The second law of thermodynamics applies to spontaneous events, but not to the deliberate acts of man (or deity). That's why humans can build a complex structure but natural processes can't."

These three beliefs are all completely wrong, and they all indicate a frightening ignorance of scientific principles. Let us examine each belief separately:

  1. Actually, the entropy of a living organism can decrease, because a living organism is not a closed system. Since it is an open system, entropy can leave and enter. Entropy doesn't have to be destroyed- just moved. The concept of the closed system vs the open system is one of the most basic concepts that we teach kids in high school, and if someone thinks a living organism is a closed system, he must be staggeringly ignorant. Food, water, and energy enter and leave your body all the time, thus making it an open system. Furthermore, an entire species is even less of a closed system than an individual life form, and evolution occurs from one generation to the next, not in a single organism as it ages.

  2. Complexity is not the destruction of disorder or the creation of order. In fact, there is more disorder in complex systems, as any student of chaos theory (or government bureacracies) can tell you. There is far more entropy in a nuclear power plant than there is in an ice cube, and a pretty snowflake has much more complexity than the drop of water from whence it came.

  3. Physical laws apply all the time, to everybody, regardless of intent or intelligence. If the second law of thermodynamics truly prohibited the creation of complexity, then it wouldn't matter whether the complexity is created by "deliberate" acts or by random happenstance- it would be impossible in both cases. It is utterly unbelievable to me that creationist ignoramuses would interpret any physical law to only apply in the absence of deliberate intervention. No other physical laws of physics are interpreted to apply only in the absence of intelligent intervention- does gravity shut off when humans intervene?

This argument has been so thoroughly disproven, so many times in so many ways, that it's almost comical when people keep bringing it up. They might as well just tattoo their foreheads with the words "scientific ignoramus."

"By taking a random mixture of elements and analysing the probability of elements randomly forming into the correct combinations and orientations to make a simple amino acid, I can show that it is probabilistically impossible for the simplest amino acid to form, never mind the first living cell. Therefore, a Creator must have formed the first organisms, if not all of them."

This argument is invalid for the following reasons:

  1. Spontaneous formation of amino and fatty acids has been observed in the laboratory, by subjecting an atmosphere of hydrogen, water vapour, ammonia and methane to electrical discharges and ultraviolet radiation. This simulates primeval Earth environmental conditions, therefore it is an observed fact, and not subject to debate.

  2. Chemical reactions are not random! Elements only bond in certain combinations. Light a match in a cloud of hydrogen and oxygen, and countless trillions upon trillions of hydrogen and oxygen atoms will react to form H2O. Not H8O, and not H5O, but H2O. Purely random combinatorics are a completely invalid way of modelling chemical reactions.

  3. The first living cell did not have to form from raw materials. It would have formed from more primitive components such as RNA, which was proposed many years ago as the first self-replicating molecule. It was even experimentally found to have catalytic capabilities for adding new nucleotides to the end of the chain or removing them, leading to the term "RNA World" to describe the origins of life. But even if RNA is not the candidate we're looking for, there is certainly no need to assume that the first organic self-replicators would have been full-blown single-celled organisms. The early self-replicators (such as RNA, if it was indeed the first self-replicator) would not have left fossils.

  4. This entire attack is a red herring, because evolution theory and abiogenesis (the formation of organic self-replicators from simpler organic materials) are two completely different theories. Lumping them together is just as fallacious as lumping evolution theory with Big Bang theory. The process of evolution is heritable change in populations over multiple generations. Because the process of evolution requires multiple generations to occur, it cannot possibly happen before the first living organism! It doesn't kick in until after the first living organism already exists! Even if abiogenesis could be disproved, evolution theory would still be valid.

I should also note that this argument is generally coupled with the fallacious reasoning that "anything we don't understand is proof of divine intervention." Poorly understood phenomena are not invalidations of science- they are opportunities for scientific investigation. If we treat every gap in our understanding as proof of divine intervention, we would be no better than the tribal primitives who attributed divine intervention to everything from solar eclipses to rain. Visit the Probability page if you want to know more.

"Some older species fossils can be found on top of newer fossils. This inconsistency in your so-called 'progressionism' proves that creation theory is correct, since it means that all species were created at the same time."

More bad science, since this only occurs with animal remains that are on the surface. What happens is that severe erosion or a geological upheaval can occasionally expose strata bearing fossils, and of course, when Skippy the Dog runs away and dies near these old fossils, the "Young Earth Creationist" crowd immediately interprets this as disproof of the entire fossil record, the entire field of geology, the age of the Earth, etc.

As usual, their argument is based on ignorance of proper scientific method. This evidence would be disproof of the fossil record if it was impossible to rationalize its existence with that record. However, that is simply not the case. Geologists can examine patterns in the rock to determine whether a region is old or new, cross-cut, the result of upheaval, etc. It is the creationists who will look at a region, assume its age without using proper methodology, and then use fossil findings in that region to "disprove" geology and evolution theory.

"Evolution can explain changes in a species, but where does a whole new species come from? Speciation is the downfall of Evolution Theory!"

This is another case of creationists projecting their own pseudoscientific attitudes onto evolution theory. In this case, they are predisposed to believe that the creation of a species is a sudden, dramatic event at some fixed moment in time. One moment there's species A, and then the next moment there's species B. Much as God created Man from dust, and Eve from Adam's rib, they imagine that "evolutionists" describe evolution creating a man directly from an ape. But evolution theory does not work that way.

Speciation is not a sudden, miraculous transformation from one species to another. The way creationists envision evolution theory, a pregnant female ape went into labour one day and a human being popped out! It is a gross understatement to say that this is a misrepresentation of the truth. In reality, evolution theory merely proposes that a great many small changes eventually caused an animal population to become intersterile with its ancestors.

Of course, this would mean that there should be fossil evidence of various intermediate stages between successful species, and there is. Naturally, creationists explain all of the evidence away by pointing the finger at their favourite whipping boy: the global conspiracy of evil scientists, who work tirelessly to cover up the truth and fabricate false evidence. These people watch "X-Files" too damned much.

"I know we've observed micro-evolution, but what about macro-evolution? There is no evidence for macro-evolution!"

The creationist invention of the terms "macroevolution" and "microevolution" is a good example of how they try to mutilate the terms of science to their own advantage. Biologists do not differentiate between micro-evolution and macro-evolution, any more than mathematicians differentiate between micro-addition and macro-addition.

Their argument that there is no evidence for "macroevolution" is ridiculous because "macroevolution" is simply the result of adding a lot of "microevolution" together, and "microevolution" is, by their own admission, completely supported by various forms of evidence.

The other problem for this argument is that there actually is evidence to directly support what they describe as "macroevolution", and it's called "the fossil record". It's evidence because it is consistent with prediction. Of course, that's not enough for the creationists- they demand direct observation of massive evolutionary change in living animals, even though they know that we would have to observe living animals for millions of years in order to obtain the evidence they seek. Can you see the problem with this demand? It's pretty obvious- they are deliberately asking for a form of evidence which is impossible to obtain (millions of years of direct observation), and ignoring a form of evidence (the fossil record) which is relatively easy to obtain.

The universe operates on tiny processes, affecting tiny particles, which add up in tremendous numbers to cause large changes. If someone is going to claim that a slow, steady process cannot create large-scale changes given sufficient time, he had better provide some evidence and reasoning, rather than simply stating it as a fact and demanding impossible forms of evidence to disprove it. Are we to assume that all gradual processes eventually hit "brick walls" and stop, for mysterious and unknown reasons?

Do we question tectonic plate theory on the basis that we've observed small-scale tectonic plate movement but not large-scale tectonic plate movement? Do we insist that no one should believe in tectonic plate theory until we've been able to observe it for millions of years, so we can see long-distance movements firsthand? Do we deny the possibility of large-scale rock erosion because we've only seen small scale rock erosion? Why would a gradual process like tectonic plate movement, rock erosion, or evolution suddenly stop after an arbitrary length of time? What would make it stop? Why make this ridiculous distinction between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution?" Where is the line drawn between the two? What causes the barrier? These are questions that the creationists don't attempt to ask or answer, because like O.J. Simpson's defense lawyers, they're not serious about uncovering the truth. They just want to create "reasonable doubt" in the minds of a gullible audience.

The "microevolution vs macroevolution" argument is an example of creationists projecting their own mentality onto evolution, and then attacking the resulting strawman, ironically, for the very aspects that come from creationism. Creationism describes separate and distinct species: "each according to its kind". Creationists therefore make the same assumption: species are separate, indivisible, and disconnected. When they project this mentality onto evolution, they run into an obvious problem: there is no way for the process of evolution to "jump" over the invisible "barrier" between species. The problem is that they are assuming that this barrier exists! The terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution" are not found in biology; they are creationist inventions. Gradual changes eventually add up, and can turn one species into two, or they can cause a species to change so much that it becomes a distinct species from its predecessors.

As a thought experiment, consider human beings. It is generally assumed that any male/female pair of healthy human beings can produce children. But biological reproduction is a complex process, and it requires great genetic commonality. We know that two modern human beings can produce children, but what about a modern woman and a man from ten thousand years ago? What about a modern woman and a man from fifty thousand years ago? Is there still enough genetic commonality? Species are not delineated by distinct, clear boundaries. Rather, they are defined by intersterility and overt physical characteristics, and there is no "barrier" between species for the process of evolution to hurdle.



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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To: PatrickHenry
Why just stop with harmful mutations? What about Earthquakes, volcanoes, car crashes, wars, etc…? Why doesn’t God just stop all bad things from happening?

”The logical challenge is usually posed in the form of a statement such as this:
1. A good God would destroy evil.
2. An all powerful God could destroy evil.
3. Evil is not destroyed.
4. Therefore, there cannot possibly be such a good and powerful God.

“…God could not eliminate evil without at the same time rendering it impossible to accomplish other goals which are important to Him. Certainly, for God to create beings in his own image, who are capable of sustaining a personal relationship with Him, they must be beings who are capable of freely loving Him and following his will without coercion. Love or obedience on any other basis would not be love or obedience at all, but mere compliance. But creatures who are free to love God must also be free to hate or ignore Him. Creatures who are free to follow His will must also be free to reject it. And when people act in ways outside the will of God, great evil and suffering is the ultimate result. This line of thinking is known as the "free will defense" concerning the problem of evil.
But what about natural evil--evil resulting from natural processes such as earthquakes, floods and diseases? Here it is important first to recognize that we live in a fallen world, and that we are subject to natural disasters that would not have occurred had man not chosen to rebel against God. Even so, it is difficult to imagine how we could function as free creatures in a world much different than our own--a world in which consistent natural processes allow us to predict with some certainty the consequences of our choices and actions. Take the law of gravity, for instance. This is a natural process without which we could not possibly function as human beings, yet under some circumstances it is also capable of resulting in great harm.
Certainly, God is capable of destroying evil--but not without destroying human freedom, or a world in which free creatures can function. And most agree that this line of reasoning does successfully respond to the challenge of the logical problem of evil. “

…Surely it is difficult for us to understand why God would allow some things to happen. But simply because we find it difficult to imagine what reasons God could have for permitting them, does not mean that no such reasons exist. It is entirely possible that such reasons are not only beyond our present knowledge, but also beyond our present ability to understand. A child does not always understand the reasons that lie behind all that his father allows or does not allow him to do. It would be unrealistic for us to expect to understand all of God's reasons for allowing all that He does. We do not fully understand many things about the world we live in--what lies behind the force of gravity for instance, or the exact function of subatomic particles. Yet we believe in these physical realities.

661 posted on 03/19/2002 6:35:51 AM PST by Heartlander
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To: gore3000
I am glad you admit that I am consistent.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds (I just made that up. Feel free to quote me).

662 posted on 03/19/2002 6:39:32 AM PST by Junior
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To: gore3000
A Creator would have no problem at all making each species a little bit differently.

Obviously a Creator can do anything, but why would He make each gene different if, as you claim, there's a single optimum? (Hint number one: there isn't.)

Wouldn't it be more like a design if there were a single, standard gene for cytochrome c or hemoglobin? Wouldn't it be less like an accident if functional genes like Vitamin C weren't turned off but still sitting there taking up space in the primate genome?

No, nothing ever, ever disproves design. But you have stumbled onto a point against it, one that molecular biologists notice all the time. Molecular clocks are out there, running. Design does not predict this. Design does not predict anything.

663 posted on 03/19/2002 6:40:43 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: gore3000
It has a lot more bones for one thing.

Nope. There are the same number of bones found in both the arm and the wing -- at least in early birds, such as archaeopteryx. In later birds some of the wing bones have fused, but they are still discernible as having been separate bones at one time (sort of like the teeny-tiny toes of modern horses).

664 posted on 03/19/2002 6:42:40 AM PST by Junior
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To: gore3000
You also need a beak in order to feed when you do not have arms. In short, flight seems to require an almost complete change of the organism.

Funny, early birds had teeth, and it didn't seem to bother them any. Methinks you are pulling stuff out of the air, here.

665 posted on 03/19/2002 6:43:41 AM PST by Junior
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To: gore3000
Maybe you would like to try again: Now you have random mutations working together to achieve a goal! Do these random mutations talk to each other? Do they know what the goal is? Do they have a plan for making the organism more fit?

My original answer was just fine for this, but I will explain it better for the slow learners. Brains and eyes, just for an example, coevolve. This does not mean that there is direct coordination of the mutational changes in once place with those in the other. The feedback loop for coevolution is the same as for single-feature evolution. "What works, works." What doesn't work dies without offspring.

The point being that evolution is the theory that is not magic. Yours is the theory that is. But the only evidence for magic is that there's no stopping gore3000 from seeing it everywhere.

666 posted on 03/19/2002 6:49:43 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Aquinasfan
Again, a nice story. But where are the transitional fossils?

Back again, dumb as a stump, I see. St. Tom A. would be embarrassed.

You have been linked hundreds of transitionals. Your attempt to dismiss every one such as "integrated and fully functional" has been detected for the lawyerly evasion it is.

Come back with something new, when you think of it.

667 posted on 03/19/2002 6:56:12 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Aquinasfan
Once again, every fossil, unless it represents an evolutionary dead end, is a transitional fossil. I've already supplied links to transitional fossil sites to show you that transitionals are not as uncommon as you think they are. VadeRetro has supplied a link showing smooth transitions between several shellfish species in the fossil record. I understand you may be getting overwhelmed with new information, never having been exposed to these concepts before, so I'm going to repost my links for your persusal and so you won't be forced to hunt through the thread to find them:

Macroevolution, Speciation and Transitional Species


668 posted on 03/19/2002 7:00:46 AM PST by Junior
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To: Aquinasfan
Besides being "gappy," you have the problem of unevolved, "living fossils" like the coelecanth and the horseshoe crab.

Not every environment changes constantly. The environments populated by the coelocanth and the horshoe crab (and certain species of sharks, and alligators, et al) have remained pretty much the same for millions of years. There has been no strong pressure to adapt or die.

669 posted on 03/19/2002 7:03:30 AM PST by Junior
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To: Junior
Hey, here is a link that has actual - proven archeological data!

The Bible

670 posted on 03/19/2002 7:16:51 AM PST by Heartlander
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To: PatrickHenry
Yes. "Design" explains everything. And nothing.

This argument cuts both ways. Also, intelligent design does not mean optimal design, as William Dembski makes clear in the lengthy passage I posted a while back.

As ID supplants evolution and teleology is reintroduced to the study of life, benefits are bound to emerge. For example, it would have been far less likely that scientists operating under an ID paradigm would have incorrectly operated under the assumption that the appendix is a useless artifact of the evolutionary process.

Also, ID better explains natural phenomena like irreducibly complex systems (like Behe's flagella) and the sudden appearance and disappearance of morphologically rigid animal species in the fossil record.

Tell me, if everything is a design, brought about by these wonderful, invisible cosmic designers, what is your explanation for harmful mutations? They are consistent with the theory of evolution, but they shouldn't exist in a "designed" biosphere.

Again, you're confusing optimal design with intelligent design. When you look at an old AMC Pacer, you know that it wasn't designed by random chance but rather by an intelligent agent, even if not the most intelligent, intelligent agent.

Similarly with ID. It's easy to conflate the Designer of ID with the Designer of monotheism. But monotheists, and Catholics like me in particular, do not have a uniform understanding of who or what the Designer of ID is.

First of all, Christians disagree over whether this is the best of all possible worlds.

Also, Catholics are required to believe that God created the world from nothing and that Adam and Eve were the parents of the human race. But as far as I remember, the rest is open to speculation. One permissible theory is that the devil was allowed to corrupt Creation after his being cast down from Heaven prior to Adam and Eve's fall from grace.

So, at least from this Catholic's point of view, we should see a fundamentally ordered cosmos with a significantly smaller proportion of evils or disorders. Of course, it's sadly ironic that modern science attacks the philosophical system from which it was necessarily born. Natural scientists operate under the assumptions that they are observing a uniform, predictable universe and that their sensible faculties (and even intellectual abilities to some degree) are free from error. It's no accident that science arose in the West and not the East where the physical universe is "maya" or illusion, and particularly in the Christian West following on the promulgation of the dogma of creation ex nihilo, as Stanley Jaki so ably argues.

671 posted on 03/19/2002 7:22:35 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Also, intelligent design does not mean optimal design, as William Dembski makes clear in the lengthy passage I posted a while back.

Intelligent Design means never having to say, "My theory doesn't handle that very well."

672 posted on 03/19/2002 7:25:32 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Junior
If the fossil record is yielding only one individual in several thousand generations (a conservative estimate, considering the time spans we are dealing with), it is going to appear spotty and gappy.

So are these mutated individuals significantly and morphologically different from the rest of the group, as the fossil record indicates?

Or is this one-individual-in-several-thousand-generations minutely different from the rest of the herd?

In the former case, the odds of a male and female mutating similarly and simultaneously is effectively zero.

In the latter case, we have the problem of the abscence of transitional forms in the fossil record and the lack of any plausible mechanism for the development of staggeringly complex biological systems.

673 posted on 03/19/2002 7:28:14 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Heartlander; Patrick Henry
The logical challenge is usually posed in the form of a statement such as this

Besides the fact that theories regarding cosmic teleology and good and evil are outside the realm of natural science and fall under the science of philosophy.

674 posted on 03/19/2002 7:35:00 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: VadeRetro
My original answer was just fine for this, but I will explain it better for the slow learners. Brains and eyes, just for an example, coevolve. This does not mean that there is direct coordination of the mutational changes in once place with those in the other.

This slow learner has a hard time understanding what "selective advantage" an overdeveloped eyeball gives to a creature whose neurological system cannot process the new information.

675 posted on 03/19/2002 7:39:25 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Junior
VadeRetro has supplied a link showing smooth transitions between several shellfish species in the fossil record. I understand you may be getting overwhelmed with new information, never having been exposed to these concepts before

No, I'm just busy laughing.

676 posted on 03/19/2002 7:42:01 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Heartlander
Hey, here is a link that has actual - proven archeological data!

No, not that! ;o)

677 posted on 03/19/2002 7:43:29 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: VadeRetro
Intelligent Design means never having to say, "My theory doesn't handle that very well."

Do you not understand the difference between intelligent design and optimal design? Was the AMC Pacer example difficult to understand?

678 posted on 03/19/2002 7:46:27 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
So are these mutated individuals significantly and morphologically different from the rest of the group, as the fossil record indicates?

Or is this one-individual-in-several-thousand-generations minutely different from the rest of the herd?

The mutations within any given generation are never going to be so great as to prevent the individual with them from mating within his population -- otherwise the mutation immediately disappears from the gene pool. The mutation may be something very tiny, such as a different colored spot on a wing, or it may be something not physically noticeable, such as the ability to digest cow's milk. If the gene aids in survival it will eventually (several generations later) come to be possessed by the entire population. I don't quite understand your inability to grasp this fairly simple concept; it's almost as if you are poking around attempting to find some flaw or chink that can be exploited to allow you to maintain a belief that God zapped it all into existence in situ, instead of the somewhat messy-but-effective method of mutation and selection.

Gore3000's reticence I can understand. He's dug himself a hole so deep with his constant bearing of false witness that he's got to prove to God that it was all in a good cause if he's to avoid problems once he shuffles off this mortal coil. You, on the other hand, have up until just a short while ago, evinced an open mind with regards to learning what the Theory of Evolution really means. This was similar to a situation we had with a young fellow about a year ago named PatrioticTeen. He started off asking fairly intelligent questions about the theory and seemed to be picking up on what it really meant rather than what he'd been told it meant, but then suddenly he began to parrot the standard fundamentalist line that evolution was evil, satanic, atheistic and caused tooth decay -- it was almost as if someone had flipped a switch. I don't want to see our conversations here descend to such a level.

Besides, with a tag like Aquinasfan, you've got to be a thinker...

679 posted on 03/19/2002 7:49:43 AM PST by Junior
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To: Aquinasfan
This slow learner has a hard time understanding what "selective advantage" an overdeveloped eyeball gives to a creature whose neurological system cannot process the new information.

You're simply doing the "integrated and fully functional" dodge. This is stupid and wrong. Science cannot reason by such "You can't make me understand!" stupidity bludgeons. This is not teachable content.

Individuals get some mix of the genomes of their parents plus maybe some unique mutations. In each population, drifting wherever it is drifting, there's a cloud of different unique genomes about a central average. They're all similar enough to be compatible, but they're all unique.

(I'm using a sexual species model here. Cloning species can't evolve very fast, by comparison.)

In the human species right now, there's a range of brain adaptations for processing visual data. There's a range of visual acuities in the physical eyes.

It's the same thing all over in sexual species. There's this cloud of individual genomes. Natural selection lops off the unfit ones. At any given time, there can be a whole lot of things evolving. The mutations are more or less random, but the selective forces create a convergence toward something that works in current conditions.

Anything not "integrated and fully functional" in your mantra tends to be selected out at once. Mainstream science does not predict finding a lot of obviously unfit animals in the fossil record. That you continue to brandish this absurd strawman after you have been told twenty times that science does not say that looks rather dishonest. But if you drop it, you have to face all those transitionals that you've been happily chanting don't exist.

Science cannot work by closing its eyes, stuffing its fingers in its ears, and going "La la la, I can't hear you!" ID has no useful framework to replace the useful framework of evolution.

gore3000 has said that, for all the fossil record shows, dinosaurs might have had mammary glands. Indeed, for all that ID/creationism says, they might have. Evolution, which has real information content, tells us that they did not.

I have challenged gore to show his understanding of evolution by telling me why, but perhaps you'd like to beat him to the punch. Do you know why?

680 posted on 03/19/2002 8:15:51 AM PST by VadeRetro
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