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Common Creationist Arguments - Pseudoscience
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Arguments/Pseudoscience.shtml ^

Posted on 03/13/2002 4:47:26 AM PST by JediGirl

Common Creationist Arguments

Pseudoscience

Pseudoscience is a scientific-sounding argument which in fact has no scientific validity whatsoever. This type of argument is based on the fact that the average layperson knows so little about science that he or she is liable to judge a scientific argument solely on its style and presentation (eg- "does it sound scientific?", or "does it incorporate scientific-sounding terms?") for lack of any other method of judging its validity.

Suggested Tactics

This type of creationist argument is difficult for most people to defend against, unless they are fairly knowledgeable about science (that's why it's so popular with creationists- they may not know anything about science, but they're gambling that you don't either). In my case, I simply call upon my knowledge of certain basic scientific principles that I learned in university, but I can't instruct everyone to do this, since not everyone has a technical background.

Therefore, it's difficult for me to recommand tactics for laypeople to counteract this sort of argument, but we should keep in mind that creationist pseudoscience arguments are almost never generated out of the mind of the creationist himself. They all tend to come from the same widely distributed pool of creationist literature, which is one of the reasons that creationists all over the world tend to spout the same pseudoscience arguments. I can offer the following suggestions:

    Remember that if your opponent has no direct knowledge of the science involved, and is merely claiming truth because "I read it somewhere", this constitutes a fallacious appeal to authority. Point this out to him. One should always be able to explain the logic and science behind one's argument rather than simply making vague reference to an anonymous source.

    Since these arguments are actually second hand arguments, demand to see the original source for his claim. When you see the source, check the credentials of the author. If they aren't fraudulent, check up on the university where the author got his degree. Odds are that the degree is either honorary, or it comes from a cheap diploma mill (or worse yet, one of the many church-run schools set up expressly for the purpose of handing out degrees to creationists). If you don't have the resources to check up on universities, try looking up the Talk.Origins website at www.talkorigins.org, which maintains a list of discredited creationist "experts" and their bogus credentials.

Examples follow:

"Occam's Razor is a scientific principle which says that when faced with two theories, we should always choose the simplest theory. Evolution theory requires billions of years of chemical reactions, environmental effects, and genetic mutations. Creation theory simply says "God did it". Creation theory is obviously simpler, therefore Occam's Razor demands that we must select Creation theory on scientific grounds."

This is perhaps the single most moronic creationist idea I've ever heard (it's also been used to "prove" the existence of God, by arguing that the concept of God is much simpler than the study of science). It's a classic example of creationist pseudoscience. They learn the term "Occam's Razor" and they learn just enough about its definition to abuse it, but they make no effort whatsoever to learn its true meaning.

"Choose the simplest theory" is an oversimplification of the concept of Occam's Razor. The term is named after the 14th century philosopher and theologian William of Occam. It might strike some as strange that a scientific principle might have come from a theologian, but good scientists do not practice appeals to authority or ad hominem attacks. If an idea makes sense, it doesn't matter who it came from, and the universal acceptance of Occam's Razor is a perfect example of that philosophy.

In any case, he argued that we should never "multiply entities unnecessarily". In other words, cut out extraneous terms from an equation. He used that principle (which is really just an argument against redundancy) to show that it was impossible to deduce God's existence through reason alone, so one would have to take it purely on faith. The irony is that a theologian realized that there was no logical basis for God's existence more than 600 years ago but modern fundamentalists still can't figure it out, and actually use his name to "prove" the exact opposite of what he himself argued!

For those who cannot appreciate the simplicity of Occam's Razor in its original form, Isaac Newton restated it thusly: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances." In plain English, when faced with two scientific theories which make the same predictions, choose the simpler theory. Or, as Stephen Hawking put it: "Cut out all the features of the theory which cannot be observed." (taken from A Brief History of Time).

Like all scientific principles, Occam's Razor is accepted not because William of Occam said it, but because it makes sense. You don't need to appeal to authority or take its validity on faith. If you are faced with two competing theories between which you have no other method of deciding, is it not obvious that the theory containing extra or unverifiable terms must therefore contain redundancies? The fact that the simpler theory can accomplish the same descriptive and predictive feats while utilizing fewer terms and not relying on unverifiable or unobservable phenomena is evidence of superiority.

Consider the analogy of two mechanical devices for making widgets. Both perform exactly the same function. In repeated, exhaustive tests, both are shown to produce exactly the same quality of widget, at the same rate, with the same raw materials. Both produce the same amount of waste. Both consume the same amount of electrical power. They cost the same. In other words, their performance is identical in every measurable way. The only noticeable difference is that device #1 is much simpler than device #2. It contains fewer components and mechanisms, and its operating principle is therefore simpler. Which one would you choose?

Suppose the salesman for device #2 is quite upset that you are leaning toward device #1, and he promises to do better. The next day, he returns with a new device (we'll call it device #3) which is completely sealed in black plastic (the classic "black box"). He says it's the latest, most advanced widget-making machine in the world. You feed it electricity and raw materials, and it spits out widgets. Its performance is no different from device #1 and device #2, but it is not user servicable. You can't see inside to figure out how it works, and the salesman refuses to let you see diagrams or schematics, ostensibly because the operation of the machine is beyond both your intellectual capacity and his. The salesman argues that device #3 is actually simpler than both device #1 and #2 because it has just one component: the black box. Does this make sense to you? Again, which device would you choose?

Occam's Razor is merely a name given to a logical and intuitively obvious thought process of eliminating redundancies. It cannot be used to choose between competing theories whose predictions are vastly different, any more than the simplicity of a drill press can be used to prove that it's superior to a fighter plane. Now that we are equipped with an understanding of the reasoning behind Occam's Razor, we can list some of the reasons that it cannot be used to support either creationism or the existence of God:

  1. Occam's Razor is a method of choosing between competing scientific theories. It is irrelevant when comparing a scientific theory to the concept of God or creationism because God and creationism are not scientific theories. There are no objective terms in the concept of God. No equations. No mechanisms. No limits. No methods through which it can be used to predict the outcome of natural processes. No methods through which it can be tested, or disproven. The concept of God is actually the antithesis of a scientific theory, in that one resorts to the divine only when one's reason has either failed or been voluntarily suppressed. In the analogy above, Occam's Razor was used to evaluate a pair of machines. It couldn't be used to evaluate a machine versus, say, a piece of music.

  2. "God" is actually not a "simpler theory" than science. "God" is merely a three-letter name which is affixed to a deity whose machinations are supposedly so complex that they are beyond mortal comprehension! If God's methods are inscrutable and incomprehensible to humans (as claimed in the Bible and by all Christians), then what business does anyone have claiming that they are "simpler" than a theory which humans can understand? In the analogy above, the concept of God is very much like the "black box". The salesman may argue that it's simpler because it's a nice smooth black box instead of a set of gears and motors, but that's a childish superficiality at best, and a bald-faced lie at worst.

  3. Occam's Razor is not invoked unless the competing theories make identical predictions. It is a method of eliminating redundancies, as William of Occam first reasoned, and it only applies when the performance of the competing theories is identical. When two theories make vastly different predictions (as is the case with science and Biblical literalism), then Occam's Razor is completely irrelevant. In the analogy above, Occam's Razor was used to evaluate a pair of machines whose performance was identical. If the two machines made widgets of vastly different characteristics, Occam's Razor would be irrelevant.

The use of Occam's Razor to "prove" the existence of God or the validity of Biblical literalism is a classic example of creationist pseudoscience, because it is so emblematic of their method: take a real principle and grossly misinterpret it to mean the exact opposite of what it truly means.

"The second law of thermodynamics makes evolution impossible. It states that complexity cannot be spontaneously created, so it is impossible for natural processes to create a complex organism from a simple organism!"

This is one of the oldest, and most popular creationist pseudoscience arguments. It's been kicking around for more than a century, thanks to general public ignorance of thermodynamics. In fact, it's wrong on so many levels that it's hard to know where to start! Perhaps we should start at the beginning, with the definition of the second law of thermodynamics. According to my engineering thermodynamics textbook, the second law of thermodynamics has two basic postulates:

  1. All physical processes create entropy (microscopic disorder).

  2. The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease, ie- entropy can be created but not destroyed.

That's a lot different from "complexity cannot be spontaneously created", isn't it? Big surprise- creationists don't know anything about thermodynamics. Now that we've established their bizarre misconception about the second law of thermodynamics, we should try to understand what strange mental contortions were necessary to go from "the entropy of a closed system cannot decrease" to "complexity cannot be spontaneously created."

Upon further questioning, creationists invariably reveal the following beliefs about the second law:

  1. "The entropy of a living organism can't decrease."

  2. "The creation of complexity requires the destruction of entropy."

  3. "The second law of thermodynamics applies to spontaneous events, but not to the deliberate acts of man (or deity). That's why humans can build a complex structure but natural processes can't."

These three beliefs are all completely wrong, and they all indicate a frightening ignorance of scientific principles. Let us examine each belief separately:

  1. Actually, the entropy of a living organism can decrease, because a living organism is not a closed system. Since it is an open system, entropy can leave and enter. Entropy doesn't have to be destroyed- just moved. The concept of the closed system vs the open system is one of the most basic concepts that we teach kids in high school, and if someone thinks a living organism is a closed system, he must be staggeringly ignorant. Food, water, and energy enter and leave your body all the time, thus making it an open system. Furthermore, an entire species is even less of a closed system than an individual life form, and evolution occurs from one generation to the next, not in a single organism as it ages.

  2. Complexity is not the destruction of disorder or the creation of order. In fact, there is more disorder in complex systems, as any student of chaos theory (or government bureacracies) can tell you. There is far more entropy in a nuclear power plant than there is in an ice cube, and a pretty snowflake has much more complexity than the drop of water from whence it came.

  3. Physical laws apply all the time, to everybody, regardless of intent or intelligence. If the second law of thermodynamics truly prohibited the creation of complexity, then it wouldn't matter whether the complexity is created by "deliberate" acts or by random happenstance- it would be impossible in both cases. It is utterly unbelievable to me that creationist ignoramuses would interpret any physical law to only apply in the absence of deliberate intervention. No other physical laws of physics are interpreted to apply only in the absence of intelligent intervention- does gravity shut off when humans intervene?

This argument has been so thoroughly disproven, so many times in so many ways, that it's almost comical when people keep bringing it up. They might as well just tattoo their foreheads with the words "scientific ignoramus."

"By taking a random mixture of elements and analysing the probability of elements randomly forming into the correct combinations and orientations to make a simple amino acid, I can show that it is probabilistically impossible for the simplest amino acid to form, never mind the first living cell. Therefore, a Creator must have formed the first organisms, if not all of them."

This argument is invalid for the following reasons:

  1. Spontaneous formation of amino and fatty acids has been observed in the laboratory, by subjecting an atmosphere of hydrogen, water vapour, ammonia and methane to electrical discharges and ultraviolet radiation. This simulates primeval Earth environmental conditions, therefore it is an observed fact, and not subject to debate.

  2. Chemical reactions are not random! Elements only bond in certain combinations. Light a match in a cloud of hydrogen and oxygen, and countless trillions upon trillions of hydrogen and oxygen atoms will react to form H2O. Not H8O, and not H5O, but H2O. Purely random combinatorics are a completely invalid way of modelling chemical reactions.

  3. The first living cell did not have to form from raw materials. It would have formed from more primitive components such as RNA, which was proposed many years ago as the first self-replicating molecule. It was even experimentally found to have catalytic capabilities for adding new nucleotides to the end of the chain or removing them, leading to the term "RNA World" to describe the origins of life. But even if RNA is not the candidate we're looking for, there is certainly no need to assume that the first organic self-replicators would have been full-blown single-celled organisms. The early self-replicators (such as RNA, if it was indeed the first self-replicator) would not have left fossils.

  4. This entire attack is a red herring, because evolution theory and abiogenesis (the formation of organic self-replicators from simpler organic materials) are two completely different theories. Lumping them together is just as fallacious as lumping evolution theory with Big Bang theory. The process of evolution is heritable change in populations over multiple generations. Because the process of evolution requires multiple generations to occur, it cannot possibly happen before the first living organism! It doesn't kick in until after the first living organism already exists! Even if abiogenesis could be disproved, evolution theory would still be valid.

I should also note that this argument is generally coupled with the fallacious reasoning that "anything we don't understand is proof of divine intervention." Poorly understood phenomena are not invalidations of science- they are opportunities for scientific investigation. If we treat every gap in our understanding as proof of divine intervention, we would be no better than the tribal primitives who attributed divine intervention to everything from solar eclipses to rain. Visit the Probability page if you want to know more.

"Some older species fossils can be found on top of newer fossils. This inconsistency in your so-called 'progressionism' proves that creation theory is correct, since it means that all species were created at the same time."

More bad science, since this only occurs with animal remains that are on the surface. What happens is that severe erosion or a geological upheaval can occasionally expose strata bearing fossils, and of course, when Skippy the Dog runs away and dies near these old fossils, the "Young Earth Creationist" crowd immediately interprets this as disproof of the entire fossil record, the entire field of geology, the age of the Earth, etc.

As usual, their argument is based on ignorance of proper scientific method. This evidence would be disproof of the fossil record if it was impossible to rationalize its existence with that record. However, that is simply not the case. Geologists can examine patterns in the rock to determine whether a region is old or new, cross-cut, the result of upheaval, etc. It is the creationists who will look at a region, assume its age without using proper methodology, and then use fossil findings in that region to "disprove" geology and evolution theory.

"Evolution can explain changes in a species, but where does a whole new species come from? Speciation is the downfall of Evolution Theory!"

This is another case of creationists projecting their own pseudoscientific attitudes onto evolution theory. In this case, they are predisposed to believe that the creation of a species is a sudden, dramatic event at some fixed moment in time. One moment there's species A, and then the next moment there's species B. Much as God created Man from dust, and Eve from Adam's rib, they imagine that "evolutionists" describe evolution creating a man directly from an ape. But evolution theory does not work that way.

Speciation is not a sudden, miraculous transformation from one species to another. The way creationists envision evolution theory, a pregnant female ape went into labour one day and a human being popped out! It is a gross understatement to say that this is a misrepresentation of the truth. In reality, evolution theory merely proposes that a great many small changes eventually caused an animal population to become intersterile with its ancestors.

Of course, this would mean that there should be fossil evidence of various intermediate stages between successful species, and there is. Naturally, creationists explain all of the evidence away by pointing the finger at their favourite whipping boy: the global conspiracy of evil scientists, who work tirelessly to cover up the truth and fabricate false evidence. These people watch "X-Files" too damned much.

"I know we've observed micro-evolution, but what about macro-evolution? There is no evidence for macro-evolution!"

The creationist invention of the terms "macroevolution" and "microevolution" is a good example of how they try to mutilate the terms of science to their own advantage. Biologists do not differentiate between micro-evolution and macro-evolution, any more than mathematicians differentiate between micro-addition and macro-addition.

Their argument that there is no evidence for "macroevolution" is ridiculous because "macroevolution" is simply the result of adding a lot of "microevolution" together, and "microevolution" is, by their own admission, completely supported by various forms of evidence.

The other problem for this argument is that there actually is evidence to directly support what they describe as "macroevolution", and it's called "the fossil record". It's evidence because it is consistent with prediction. Of course, that's not enough for the creationists- they demand direct observation of massive evolutionary change in living animals, even though they know that we would have to observe living animals for millions of years in order to obtain the evidence they seek. Can you see the problem with this demand? It's pretty obvious- they are deliberately asking for a form of evidence which is impossible to obtain (millions of years of direct observation), and ignoring a form of evidence (the fossil record) which is relatively easy to obtain.

The universe operates on tiny processes, affecting tiny particles, which add up in tremendous numbers to cause large changes. If someone is going to claim that a slow, steady process cannot create large-scale changes given sufficient time, he had better provide some evidence and reasoning, rather than simply stating it as a fact and demanding impossible forms of evidence to disprove it. Are we to assume that all gradual processes eventually hit "brick walls" and stop, for mysterious and unknown reasons?

Do we question tectonic plate theory on the basis that we've observed small-scale tectonic plate movement but not large-scale tectonic plate movement? Do we insist that no one should believe in tectonic plate theory until we've been able to observe it for millions of years, so we can see long-distance movements firsthand? Do we deny the possibility of large-scale rock erosion because we've only seen small scale rock erosion? Why would a gradual process like tectonic plate movement, rock erosion, or evolution suddenly stop after an arbitrary length of time? What would make it stop? Why make this ridiculous distinction between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution?" Where is the line drawn between the two? What causes the barrier? These are questions that the creationists don't attempt to ask or answer, because like O.J. Simpson's defense lawyers, they're not serious about uncovering the truth. They just want to create "reasonable doubt" in the minds of a gullible audience.

The "microevolution vs macroevolution" argument is an example of creationists projecting their own mentality onto evolution, and then attacking the resulting strawman, ironically, for the very aspects that come from creationism. Creationism describes separate and distinct species: "each according to its kind". Creationists therefore make the same assumption: species are separate, indivisible, and disconnected. When they project this mentality onto evolution, they run into an obvious problem: there is no way for the process of evolution to "jump" over the invisible "barrier" between species. The problem is that they are assuming that this barrier exists! The terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution" are not found in biology; they are creationist inventions. Gradual changes eventually add up, and can turn one species into two, or they can cause a species to change so much that it becomes a distinct species from its predecessors.

As a thought experiment, consider human beings. It is generally assumed that any male/female pair of healthy human beings can produce children. But biological reproduction is a complex process, and it requires great genetic commonality. We know that two modern human beings can produce children, but what about a modern woman and a man from ten thousand years ago? What about a modern woman and a man from fifty thousand years ago? Is there still enough genetic commonality? Species are not delineated by distinct, clear boundaries. Rather, they are defined by intersterility and overt physical characteristics, and there is no "barrier" between species for the process of evolution to hurdle.



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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To: VadeRetro
Speciation by Punctuated Equilibrium.

Their explanation is that a group of creatures was cut off from the rest of their species. Since the group probably lived in a small inhospitable fringe area, they would be under selection pressure. Being a small group, they were able to evolve fairly quickly. Then, later, they spread, and replaced their parent species.
It's too bad you don't see the humor in this.
581 posted on 03/18/2002 6:03:59 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: VadeRetro
How Could An Eye Evolve?

Seriously, you don't think this is funny?

Besides the sheer ludicrousness of this "just so" story, the author forgot to mention how the rest of the creature's support systems (nervous, musculoskeletal, circulatory) were simultaneously and beneficiently 'evolving.' (Neither does the author even attempt to explain how this happened.)

582 posted on 03/18/2002 6:14:47 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Things like wings don't just crop up over night. They are modifications of existing structures. They start out as something else and gradually change to accommodate new uses. For instance, the wing started out as a therapod foreleg. Recent research shows that early bird-like dinosaurs may not have developed flight or needed a full-fledged wing right off the bat. Flapping the arm/wing assisted the critter in climbing trees to escape predators. There was not need for a full-fledged (no pun intended) wing. Small modifications allowed the animal to launch itself at the tree from a little farther away, and then a little bit farther, and so on. At no point was any new system being introduced -- there were simply modification of existing structures. That is why you'll never see a skunk with gills, or anything like that. You will not see a radical bad mutation in the fossil record for the same reason -- only small changes are made in the organism and if the small changes decrease the organism's chance for survival it will be weeded out long before it gets out of hand.
583 posted on 03/18/2002 6:44:49 AM PST by Junior
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To: Aquinasfan
I'm not sure what this "integrated and fully functional" stuff is all about. Every critter that ever existed is going to be "integrated and fully functional" or it will not survive to propogate. There will be minor modifications in just about every organism, but nothing major is going to crop up overnight. On a geological timescale it may appear to happen quickly, but it is still a series of small mutations over many, many generations. Each of the small mutations aids the critter in some extra way that allows it to pass its genes on to the next generation.
584 posted on 03/18/2002 7:13:58 AM PST by Junior
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To: Aquinasfan
Neither does the author even attempt to explain how this happened.

Because we are not sure of the how (was it environmental pressure, sexual selection, etc.). For the longest time we did not know HOW the Sun shone; this did not mean that God was personally keeping it burning until we discovered the secret of fusion.

585 posted on 03/18/2002 7:23:36 AM PST by Junior
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To: Aquinasfan
No. This does nothing more to prove the theory of evolution than does an archaeopteryx or a platypus. Just like the platypus (kiwi, penguin, flying squirrel, etc.), this creature seems to be integrated and fully functional.

Science is not a lawyerly twising game. No wonder you're a fan of Phil Johnson.

It occurs to me that any creature fit enough to survive you'd call "integrated and fully functional."

Darwinism predicts nothing else. At least, not for long.

586 posted on 03/18/2002 7:24:24 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Aquinasfan
Besides the sheer ludicrousness of this "just so" story, the author forgot to mention how the rest of the creature's support systems (nervous, musculoskeletal, circulatory) were simultaneously and beneficiently 'evolving.' (Neither does the author even attempt to explain how this happened.)

Did I not bring you enough broomsticks? The eye and the necessary support features co-evolve. Many things happen in parallel out there in the world.

I can't see devoting classroom time to creationists showing how dumb they can be. Your argument amounts to being dragged kicking and screaming and refusing to see. This is not teachable content.

587 posted on 03/18/2002 7:27:37 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Junior; Aquinasfan
Your postings to each other appear to be giving some guidance to those of us who recognize we're generally talking past each other. For instance, evos have been posting links to (and in the case of replies to G3K, photos of), transitional fossils. Now Aquinasfan appears to clarify why none of these transitional forms appear to him to be convincing: He's looking for a skunk with gills, or something of that nature.

Evolutionary theory doesn't claim there was one, and when it speaks of "transitional forms," it's speaking of incremental change, even in the case of punk eek. Junior's doing a pretty good job laying out what is out there and why we think it's important. It also needs to be noted that something like a skunk is too far removed from anything that has gills for there to be something "unsuccessful" directly in between them. The unsuccessful ones don't get to reproduce to the point where their offspring would be around to pass on the mistake (i.e. the skunk's gills). Ditto "a lion with wings," although I think the Abyssinians may have worshipped something like that. But no one thinks a wing appeared suddenly, fully formed and functional.

588 posted on 03/18/2002 7:36:39 AM PST by Gumlegs
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To: Aquinasfan
To Junior: (Or take the platypus. Is it a transitional "dud?" Is it the "missing link" between muskrats and ducks? Or is it a fully-formed, integrated, functional creature?)

Again, your strawman is that anything transitional is not a fully-formed and functional creature. That's just wrong. For all we know, our own species is in transition to the next thing, if we don't go extinct.

As for the platypus, so many of you picked up the same mantra at once. The platypus is having its 15 minutes of fashion right now.

Anyway, it fits nicely on the tree of life. Its ancestors branched off shortly after the transition from reptiles to mammals. It has a number of expected mammalian features, but it still lays eggs. That's a clue to something the fossil record can't provide, the order in which some of the soft-tissue changes arose.

I've been down this path with gore3000 and Southack and they make a point of seeing nothing. For a description of what the fossil record shows of reptile-mammal transtion, try The Fossil Record by Clifford Cuffey. It's a well-documented transition with a number of clinical features changing visibly in the specimens, notably the jaw and ear bones.

Monotremes have the mammal diagnostics, but their line parted company early with the root stock of later marsupials and placentals. They've been on a separate journey ever since.

The Natural History of the Monotremes.

For a direct rebuttal of creationist arguments, Creationism and the Platypus.

589 posted on 03/18/2002 7:47:51 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Gumlegs
But no one thinks a wing appeared suddenly, fully formed and functional.

In the creationists' comic books, that's exactly what the faithful are told evolution is all about. It's all they've ever known. And when we patiently -- for the zillionth time -- explain that they've been given false information, that their swami himself was misinformed (or worse), that is where the dialogue breaks down. For the creationist, there is one rule which supersedes all others: The swami is always right!

590 posted on 03/18/2002 7:48:24 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: Aquinasfan
It's too bad you don't see the humor in this.

I'm talking to a guy who said punk-eek has a problem because what would the mutated creature have to mate with--I mean there would have to be two sexually compatible major mutations at the same time and what are the odds of that?

If I didn't have a sense of humor, I'd be doing my tallhappy imitation on you. If you don't know what that is . . . Never mind.

591 posted on 03/18/2002 7:53:29 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: PatrickHenry
I'm trying to be a nice guy for a change.

Aquinasfan appears to be having a rather civilized exchange with Junior, and I was trying to help.

I think I may have been wrong about the Abyssinian lion-with-wings guy, though. It's looking like it was Babylonian. Or Assyrian. Assyrian here seen Kelly? K-E-Double L-Y ...

What? St. Patrick's Day over so soon?

592 posted on 03/18/2002 8:02:22 AM PST by Gumlegs
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To: Gumlegs
Aquinasfan appears to be having a rather civilized exchange with Junior, and I was trying to help.

It appears I've soiled the punch bowl again. Can't take me anywhere.

593 posted on 03/18/2002 8:10:32 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry
It's not you ... it's your friend. Keep Platty away from my punchbowl.
594 posted on 03/18/2002 8:28:25 AM PST by Gumlegs
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To: Gumlegs
Platypus in the punchbowl...

He He...

That's funny.

595 posted on 03/18/2002 8:29:51 AM PST by Junior
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To: Aquinasfan
I left off the summation of where I was going in 589. ID/creationism says basically anything is possible. A designer can mix and match parts of anything in His repertoire at will.

Thus, we might see an amphibian or modern reptile with mammalian three-part ear bones. For some reason, we don't. We might see an insect with feathers, or a bird with fur.

Now serious science knows when and in what lineage of reptiles--the synapsids--those jaw bones moved over into ear bones. If you followed that Cuffey link, you saw the figure and read the text. We shouldn't see the features that evolved there in side branches or in places down the tree of life, only in the things that came up the tree from there, mammals.

Evolution tells a story. It gives us a framework that says certain things should not be found. Piltdown Man was exposed by evolutionists, not creationists, because it had become increasingly clear that it didn't fit the story. It was evidence for the "Out of England" theory, and the only piece of such at that. When better dating techniques became available in the 1950s, what everyone had suspected must be true was proven true.

ID says little except that the supposed "tree" of life is mostly a coincidence. Well, maybe it's like Ford's family of cars. [Problem is, it isn't.] If the designer only designs things that fit the evolutionary tree, well . . . So what?

Not useful. In fact, not scientific.

596 posted on 03/18/2002 9:57:20 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Junior
Platypus in the punchbowl... He He... That's funny.



[Plato the Platypus arrives and spoils the creationists' party.]

597 posted on 03/18/2002 9:58:24 AM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: VadeRetro
I'm talking to a guy who said punk-eek has a problem because what would the mutated creature have to mate with--I mean there would have to be two sexually compatible major mutations at the same time and what are the odds of that?

Indeed you are. Now can you tell me how a part of the group (species) becomes geographically isolated from the rest of the group, substantially changes, becoming different in kind (i.e. "reproductively isolated") from the greater number of the same group (species) that didn't evolve? After all, by definition, one group must have mutated faster than the other group.

How could the "daughter" species produce creatures "reproductively isolated" from the "parent" species without being "reproductively isolated" from the other members of the "daughter" species, unless some members of the "daughter" species mutated favorably in the same way in the same generation?

If you want to propose evolution by small mutation to explain the emergence of variation in "daughter" species, then you have brought forward as a solution the problem that punk eek was brought forward to explain: the lack of transitional forms in the fossil record.

598 posted on 03/18/2002 10:52:22 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
How could the "daughter" species produce creatures "reproductively isolated" from the "parent" species without being "reproductively isolated" from the other members of the "daughter" species, unless some members of the "daughter" species mutated favorably in the same way in the same generation?

Isolation is not a necessary condition. It only increases the chances that a beneficial mutation spreads to the whole population by reducing the size of the 'reproductively available' population.

599 posted on 03/18/2002 11:08:35 AM PST by Lev
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To: VadeRetro
Not useful. In fact, not scientific.

William Dembski tackles this question in his new book, No Free Lunch

The crucial question for science is whether design helps us understand the world, and especially the biological world, better than we do now when we systematically eschew teleological notions from our scientific theorizing. Thus, a scientist may view design and its appeal to a designer as simply a fruitful device for understanding the world, not attaching any significance to questions such as whether a theory of design is in some ultimate sense true or whether the designer actually exists. Philosophers of science would call this a constructive empiricist approach to design. Scientists in the business of manufacturing theoretical entities like quarks, strings, and cold dark matter could therefore view the designer as just one more theoretical entity to be added to the list. I follow here Ludwig Wittgenstein, who wrote, "What a Copernicus or a Darwin really achieved was not the discovery of a true theory but of a fertile new point of view." If design cannot be made into a fertile new point of view that inspires exciting new areas of scientific investigation, then it deserves to wither and die. Yet before that happens, it deserves a fair chance to succeed.

One of my main motivations in writing this book is to free science from arbitrary constraints that, in my view, stifle inquiry, undermine education, turn scientists into a secular priesthood, and in the end prevent intelligent design from receiving a fair hearing. The subtitle of Richard Dawkins's The Blind Watchmaker reads Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe without Design. Dawkins may be right that design is absent from the universe. But science needs to address not only the evidence that reveals the universe to be without design but also the evidence that reveals the universe to be with design. Evidence is a two-edged sword: claims capable of being refuted by evidence are also capable of being supported by evidence. Even if design ends up being rejected as an unfruitful explanatory tool for science, such a negative outcome for design needs to result from the evidence for and against design being fairly considered. Darwin himself would have agreed: "A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question." Consequently, any rejection of design must not result from imposing arbitrary constraints on science that rule out design prior to any consideration of evidence.

Two main constraints have historically been used to keep design outside the natural sciences: methodological naturalism and dysteleology. According to methodological naturalism, in explaining any natural phenomenon, the natural sciences are properly permitted to invoke only natural causes to the exclusion of intelligent causes. On the other hand, dysteleology refers to inferior design-typically design that is either evil or incompetent. Dysteleology rules out design from the natural sciences on account of the inferior design that nature is said to exhibit. In this book, I will address methodological naturalism. Methodological naturalism is a regulative principle that purports to keep science on the straight and narrow by limiting science to natural causes. I intend to show that it does nothing of the sort but instead constitutes a straitjacket that actively impedes the progress of science.

On the other hand, I will not have anything to say about dysteleology. Dysteleology might present a problem if all design in nature were wicked or incompetent and continually flouted our moral and aesthetic yardsticks. But that is not the case. To be sure, there are microbes that seem designed to do a number on the mammalian nervous system and biological structures that look cobbled together by a long trial-and-error evolutionary process. But there are also biological examples of nano-engineering that surpass anything human engineers have concocted or entertain hopes of concocting. Dysteleology is primarily a theological problem. To exclude design from biology simply because not all examples of biological design live up to our expectations of what a designer should or should not have done is an evasion. The problem of design in biology is real and pervasive, and needs to be addressed head on and not sidestepped because our presuppositions about design happen to rule out imperfect design. Nature is a mixed bag. It is not William Paley's happy world of everything in delicate harmony and balance. It is not the widely caricatured Darwinian world of nature red in tooth and claw. Nature contains evil design, jerry-built design, and exquisite design. Science needs to come to terms with design as such and not dismiss it in the name of dysteleology.

A possible terminological confusion over the phrase "intelligent design" needs to be cleared up. The confusion centers on what the adjective "intelligent" is doing in the phrase "intelligent design." "Intelligent" can mean nothing more than being the result of an intelligent agent, even one who acts stupidly. On the other hand, it can mean that an intelligent agent acted with consummate skill and mastery. Critics of intelligent design often understand the "intelligent" in intelligent design in the latter sense and thus presume that intelligent design must entail optimal design. The intelligent design community, on the other hand, understands the "intelligent" in intelligent design simply to refer to intelligent agency (irrespective of skill, mastery, or cleverness) and thus separates intelligent design from optimality of design. But why then place the adjective intelligent in front of the noun design? Does not design already include the idea of intelligent agency, so that juxtaposing the two becomes redundant? Redundancy is avoided because intelligent design needs also to be distinguished from apparent design. Because design in biology so often connotes apparent design, putting intelligent in front of design ensures that the design we are talking about is not merely apparent but also actual. Whether that intelligence acts cleverly or stupidly, wisely or unwisely, optimally or suboptimally are separate questions.

Who will want to read No Free Lunch? The audience includes anyone interested in seriously exploring the scope and validity of Darwinism as well as in learning how the emerging theory of intelligent design promises to supersede it. Napoleon III remarked that one never destroys a thing until one has replaced it. Similarly, Thomas Kuhn, in the language of paradigms and paradigm shifts, claimed that for a paradigm to shift, there has to be a new paradigm in place ready to be shifted into. Throughout my work, I have not been content merely to critique existing theory but have instead striven to provide a positive more-encompassing framework within which to reconceptualize phenomena inadequately explained by existing theory. Much of No Free Lunch will be accessible to an educated lay audience. Many of the ideas have been presented in published articles and public lectures. I have seen how the ideas in this book have played themselves out under fire. The chapters are therefore tailored to questions people are actually asking. The virtue of this book is filling in the details. And the devil is in the details.

One example of how evolution has hindered the progression of natural science is in the example of the human appendix, which was believed to have been a purposeless organ or an evolutionary glitch.

And who can calculate how the study of human embryology was hindered by Haeckel's hoax?

I think the reductionist tendency of evolutionary theory/materialist philosophy will do a lot of damage in the field of artificial intelligence.

600 posted on 03/18/2002 11:09:05 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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