[Adventist Caucus] What is the actual teaching of Seventh-day Adventists regarding the "scapegoat" in the sanctuary service? Do you hold that the sins of the righteous are rolled back on Satan, so that in the end he becomes your sin bearer?

Now this is Bible Scholarship and deep sound theology. I added the Continued answer below on this question so often misrepresented here by a few posters who attack and misrepresent the Adventist position. All they do is google and copy and paste. Instead of studying it for themselves.

Continued from above.

Quote:

In Leviticus 16, two goats entered into the service of the great day of Atonement. One, in type, made atonement for sin. The other goat, for Azazel, was not slain, but was kept alive, and hence made no atonement for anyone's sins.

The first goat represented our Lord Jesus Christ, who, on the cross, made atonement for our sins. The other goat, in antithesis, symbolized Satan, who must bear the responsibility not only for his own sins but for his part in all the sins he has caused others, both righteous and wicked, to commit. This live goat, it is to be remembered, was not slain. (Many outstanding authorities support our understanding that the live goat, or Azazel, typified Satan. See Question 34.)

Two goats were obviously required, and used, on the Day of Atonement, because there is a twofold responsibility for sin—first, my responsibility as the perpetrator, agent, or medium; and second, Satan's responsibility, as the instigator, or tempter, in whose

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heart sin was first conceived. When Satan tempted our first parents to take and eat of the forbidden fruit, he as well as they had an inescapable responsibility in that act—he the instigator, and they the perpetrators. And similarly through the ages—in all sin Satan is involved in responsibility, as the originator and instigator, or tempter (John 8:44; Rom. 6:16; 1 John 3:8).

Now concerning my sin, Christ died for my sins (Rom. 5:8). He was wounded for my transgressions and bore my iniquities (Isaiah 53). He assumed my responsibilities, and His blood alone cleanses me from all sin (1 John 1:7). The atonement for my sin is made solely by the shed blood of Christ.

And concerning Satan's sin, and his responsibility as instigator and tempter, no salvation is provided for him. He must be punished for his responsibility. There is no savior, or substitute, to bear his punishment. He must himself "atone" for his sin in causing men to transgress, in the same way that a master criminal suffers on the gallows or in the electric chair for his responsibility in the crimes that he has caused others to commit. It is in this sense only that we can understand the words of Leviticus 16:10 concerning the scapegoat, "to make an atonement with him."

Courts of law recognize the principle of dual responsibility. Thus a criminal father may teach his child to steal, and the child becomes a habitual thief; or a dissolute mother may teach her daughter to engage in professional prostitution. Parental responsibility in such cases is crystal clear. The instigator of a crime is punished, as well as the instrument that actually committed the act. When the members of

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"Murder Incorporated" were brought to book for a whole succession of killings, the master mind, who had never technically taken a life, went to the chair as instigator, along with the perpetrators. And under criminal law, the instigator, or master mind, may be punished more severely than his agents.

In like manner, Satan is the responsible master mind in the great crime of sin, and his responsibility will return upon his own head. The crushing weight of his responsibility in the sins of the whole world—of the wicked as well as of the righteous—must be rolled back upon him. Simple justice demands that while Christ suffers for my guilt, Satan must also be punished as the instigator of sin.

That is why, on the Day of Atonement, two goats were necessary. One was "for the Lord" (Lev. 16:7) to provide the atonement through the shedding of his blood; the other was "for Azazel" (Lev. 16:8, margin). These two were, in the text, placed in antithesis. One typified our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who was slain as our substitute and vicariously bore our sins, with all the guilt and punishment entailed. Thus He made complete atonement for our sins. The other goat, we believe, stood for Satan, who is eventually to have rolled back upon his own head, not only his own sins, but the responsibility for all the sins he has caused others to commit.

Now two vital points involved are to be particularly noted: (1) that the transaction with the live goat (or Azazel) took place after the atonement for the sins of the people had been accomplished, and the reconciliation completed; and (2) that the live goat was not

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slain, and did not provide any propitiation or make any vicarious atonement. And without the shedding of blood there is no remission (Heb. 9:22). None of the blood of the live goat was shed, or poured out in propitiation, and none was taken into the sanctuary and sprinkled before the Lord, or placed on the horns of the altar.

Satan makes no atonement for our sins. But Satan will ultimately have to bear the retributive punishment for his responsibility in the sins of all men, both righteous and wicked.

Seventh-day Adventists therefore repudiate in toto any idea, suggestion, or implication that Satan is in any sense or degree our sin bearer. The thought is abhorrent to us, and appallingly sacrilegious. Such a concept is a dreadful disparagement of the efficacy of Christ and His salvation, and vitiates the whole glorious provision of salvation solely through our Saviour.

Satan's death, a thousand times over, could never make him a savior in any sense whatsoever. He is the archsinner of the universe, the author and instigator of sin. Even if he had never sinned, he still could never save others. Not even the highest of the holy angels could atone for our sins. Only Christ, the Creator, the one and only God-man, could make a substitutionary atonement for men's transgressions. And this Christ did completely, perfectly, and once for all, on Golgotha.

It is our primary concern that all men shall come to a knowledge of full salvation in and through Jesus Christ. Just how God finally disposes of sin, although an interesting subject to contemplate, is something we

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can safely leave to the infinite justice and mercy of God. It is evidently revealed in part in the typical transaction of the scapegoat. But our fundamental concern is that all who will respond shall come under the full atoning provisions of the shed blood of Jesus Christ our Lord.

In other words, Satan doesn’t get off the hook for his role in TEMPTING me to sin. My sin was paid for fully by the blood of Christ. Totally and completely.

In heaven, there was no one to tempt Lucifer. He was kicked out of heaven and down to this earth where he tempted Eve. And the world fell. Now he tempts us daily and when we sin, he rats us out. What a guy huh?

God doesn’t let him off the hook for all he caused through temptation. Satan gets it too. It’s called God’s JUSTICE! True and JUST are your ways.

That is what the scapegoat represents and he is sent out of the camp never to be seen or heard from again. Satan one day will burn up, be destroyed, the last to be fully consumed, and his punishment includes what he caused through his constant temptation.

People don’t read or study the Sanctuary Service so they have no idea what this is about. Yet Hebrews is about the Sanctuary service and most of Revelation takes place in the heavenly Sanctuary where John also saw the Ten Commandments and the judgement in the most holy......and in Revelation 16, we read IT IS DONE! The judgement is complete.

At the cross, God provides a means for our salvation. For all who want it. And up in heaven as our heavenly priest, he is working it out as our high priest and finally our judge in the most holy.

He goes from the first apartment to the second apartment. That is why in Daniel 7, the throne of God in the judgement scene has WHEELS. Why would a throne have wheels? Because there is movement in the heavenly sanctuary.

Nobody seems to study the Bible as much as the Protestant Seventh day Adventists. I guess that’s why we keep the seventh day Sabbath. And not Sunday. WE aren’t any better than anyone else....but we sure study the Bible. Amen.

No where in scripture does it say that Satan will be burnt up and destroyed. Try Rev 20:10.

Pretty much like all your posts you twist what God says.

You do study and have strong positions and know your positions well, but that doesn’t mean all of the positions are correct. And this is an example. Certainly, most of your positions are correct, but this isn’t one. The goat did NOT represent Satan. But a very quick aside to help explain why.

For Passover all of the leven must be removed from the house. Why? Because leven *represents* sin, as was made clear at the time and Paul expounds on later, and all sin must be put OUT. It’s symbolic.

Now, in ancient Israel, there were TWO purity requirements. The first was the normal personal purity requirements so that you could enter the Temple, go before God, etc. The second was because God was their NATIONAL King, and the Nation had to be pure before God, which was reestablished once a year. The first goat atones for the sins of the individuals in the Nation. For the second goat, the “leven” is put upon the scapegoat and it is PUT OUT to Azazel, to the Wilderness. The scapegoat is the National sins of Israel being put out of ‘the camp’.

This is what you do with sin. You put it out of your house for Passover. You put it out of the Nation (to Azazel/Wilderness/Satan) for Yom Kippur, and when Paul finds it in the Church he tells the Church to put it out of the Church and ‘hand it over to Satan’ - that is, to send the sin into the Wilderness.

THAT is the symbol of the scapegoat. The scapegoat is NOT Satan. The scapegoat represents the National sins of Israel so that they can be sent out of the Land and Israel can be accepted for another year by God.

The symbol that God had accepted the symbol and transferred Israel’s National sins onto the goat was that the scarlet cord tied around goat would turn white before the goat was sent into the Wilderness. It is said that the cord stopped turning white after the Crucifixion, and never turned white again before the Second Temple was destroyed in 70AD.

I suggest you do a word study on the word “forever” ....The Bible says Jonah was in the belly of the whale “forever.” The Bible says Sodom suffered an “eternal” hell fire.

Jonah was in the whale for 3 days and Sodom isn’t burning today.

It’s best when we let the Bible interpret itself and study all the texts. Sin and sinners are DESTROYED. Perish. Ashes.

Let’s try and do better.

Never once does it say Jonah was in the belly of the whale forever. Prove it. Provide text and identify the translation.

_____Never once does it say Jonah was in the belly of the whale forever. Prove it. Provide text and identify the translation.___

I take no delight in embarrassing you amateurs.

Jonah’s prayer in Jonah 2, including him being in the fish......”forever” verse 6.

KJV:

2 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish’s belly,

2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

Jonah...
Interesting.
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So he will Smell like sushi.

And here in the book of Jude, it says the people of Sodom suffered “Eternal Fire.” Jude 7.

Uh.....Sodom isn’t on fire today.

When we study the words “forever” and “eternal” in scripture......we quickly find out.....they do not always mean...”forever” and “eternal.” They can mean until it’s over.

Ironically, your fires of hell aren’t even hot enough to finish the job. The Bible fires finish the job. that’s why it says the wicked are turned to ASHES...and they PERISH. They are Destroyed. Dead means dead. Gone forever.

You have a God who’s into sadism, a God with a fetish who delights in torturing people forever. All because of some disembodied soul that the Catholics brought in. So people can pray to saints and spirits and give money to get souls out of purgatory.

Try reading and studying the actual Bible. It says the wicked after they burn up....will “Be as if they never were.” God will not have a trace of them to mar his perfect universe.

Let’s do better .....you’ll feel better about the truth too.

Malachi 4:3

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

_____Jonah...
Interesting.
.
So he will Smell like sushi.____

I don’t know about that, but I relate to Jonah in a way. Jonah did not like those Samaritans one Bit. He didnt want to go there and preach to them and tried to run and hide from God.

So God dealt with him. And Jonah obeyed. And he must have been one heck of a preacher because the whole city repented! And God spared Ninevah, which was a Las Vegas type city. God later destroyed it, years later but at Jonah’s time, he spared it.

And Jonah was actually mad with God.......saying..see? I knew you would spare them.

So if I see some of you in heaven.......or say Joy Behar......I’m like Jonah. See Lord? I knew you’d spare them. :)

Let’s All be in Heaven!
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Jonah is my Street Preacher.

I never asked one thing about Sodom - liar.

Jonah? You got that one?

Just because *you* misinterpret Jude on Sodom doesn’t say anything about me. Which again I never said anything about - liar.

In his *vision* in the belly of the fish he was in *the earth* forever. It was a vision.

Your misinterpretation of Jude is that he names the towns first then says *they* the *people* of the cities who practiced sodomy* were punished with eternal fire. Not the cities, the people. And they are. The statement is not figurative, it is literal.

You misuse *forever* on bad textual interpretation.

Now that I’m back in front of a computer and have better resources than fiddling with my cell phone:

Stop taking mediocre English rewordings so far in interpretation. I think you, yourself, undercut your own claim on Jonah being in the fish ‘forever’ - but let’s take a closer look at the original text translated much more literally - I won’t put the Hebrew down, you check if you don’t believe me, but the word-for-word close English translation of the text you referenced is as follows:

“To the moorings of the mountains I went down, the earth closed with its bars behind me forever, and yet You brought me up from the pit, my life, my God Yahweh.”

You notice that is the bars of the earth closed behind Jonah forever. It never says Jonah is THERE forever. Is says the bars are closed forever. Then it’s Yahweh that brings him up from the pit. Does Yahweh have to open the bars to do this? No. And even if He does do that, which the text NEVER says, it NEVER SAYS JONAH WAS THERE FOREVER.

And the text NEVER says the CITIES are burning eternally. It says the SODOMITES from the cities are in eternal fire - and so they are.

That eternal fire will NEVER be extinguished. It burns now and forever. It is called the Second Death in Revelation. And these Sodomites will be taken from the fire (which will continue to burn eternally) briefly on the Last Day for Judgement then plunged right back in for their second death. The ETERNAL is a descriptor of the FIRE. It is not a descriptor of anything to do with the physical land the cities once sat on.

Don’t you dare ever say I worship a god who’s into sadism again, you filthy liar.

And just to drive home even further what a BAD IDEA it is to use *INTERPRETATIONS* of Scripture as a basis for theology (without checking what the actual text really says), let’s take a closer look at the Greek in Jude. Again, you can check the Greek itself. A close word-for-word English translation of the Greek is as follows:

“He destroyed the angels [for] both not having kept their [own] domain but having left [their] own dwelling unto [the] judgement of [the] great day in chains eternal under darkness He keeps [them] - just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, in like manner with them having indulged in sexual immorality and having gone after strange flesh are set forth as an example of fire eternal penalty undergoing.”

This is a place where Jude (as do both Peter and Paul) reference Genesis 6:1-4 and the angels leaving their own ‘station’ taking on flesh and abiding with women - this is sexual immorality and ‘strange flesh’ to the angels, something of which they should not partake and much sorrow comes from it - and Jude is likening that transgression (angels taking daughters of men to make children) and the transgression of sodomy. And the angels and Sodomites are likewise suffering eternal pucnishments. They are as literal for the transgressing angels as they are for the Sodomites.

In the KJV particularly it is easy to not notice the connection between the Sodomites and the fallen angels, but you can’t deny it in the Greek (if you read Greek and understand Greek declinations, conjugations, etc.). It is very important to how you understand the meaning of both halves of the statement.

KJV is a pretty good interpretation, but like ALL interpretations has LOTS of problems. KJV less than most, but problems nonetheless. No one should *ever* base a point of theology around any word in any English bible without double-checking the Hebrew or Greek.

“His ways are not Ours
Nor are His Thoughts.... “

I am no Catholic. But I generally have less of a problem with them than I do with you SDA people around here. But...

“You have a God who’s into sadism, a God with a fetish who delights in torturing people forever. All because of some disembodied soul that the Catholics brought in. So people can pray to saints and spirits and give money to get souls out of purgatory.”

Your third sentence is a fair criticism of praying to someone who can’t hear you. I’ve already taking you to task on the first sentence. Your middle sentence is simply wrong.

Paul even makes that clear - in 2 Corinthians 12 Paul says:
“I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows), was caught up to the third heaven. And I know that this person (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows)...”

So Paul makes absolutely clear someone can be out of their body. That makes your second statement in absolute contradiction to Paul. Likewise, Jesus stands at the right hand of the Father to welcome Steven as his body is destroyed in Acts. If his body is there in Jerusalem, stoned and dead, how is Jesus welcoming Steven into heaven?

And let’s go to 1 Samuel 28 with Saul and the Witch of Endor:

“So [Saul] disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and set out with two companions. They came to the woman at night, and Saul said to her, “Divine for me; conjure up the spirit I tell you.’”

Or do you think that Samuel appeared in body before the witch and Saul, and if he appeared in body why would Samuel call him a spirit?

I had to recheck to make sure I was right about SDA opinions on what happens to you after you die (I tend to do that before I post and start calling everyone amateurs). The problem here is that SDA folks play fast and lose with the facts a lot. Everything I could find says SDA folks believe in “soul sleep” and that after you die your soul returns to God in a state of unconsciousness awaiting the resurrection. So SDA says you don’t have any idea what is going on after you die.

Let’s go back to the Witch of Endor, shall we? The bible says DEAD SAMUEL speaks to Saul. How can an unconscious soul, completely unaware, give a speech to Saul?

Can you explain this to me? Do SDA folks believe in soul-sleep or don’t they? Or are you going to make up some special “dispensation” (pun intended) where God “wakes” Samuel up for this task? And is “awake” Samuel there in the flash?

Inquiring minds want to know...

I know this isn’t your topic - but YOU opened this can of worms when spewing vitriol at the Catholics, not me...

____Or do you think that Samuel appeared in body before the witch and Saul, and if he appeared in body why would Samuel call him a spirit?____

That wasn’t Samuel and the Bible doesn’t say it as Samuel. It says they PERCEIVED it was Samuel. Satan can impersonate, heck he even appeared as a serpent.

Let’s do better.

1 Samuel 28.

14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”

And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul PERCEIVED that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.”

So they thought it was Samuel they were talking too. The Bible says the dead KNOW NOTHING. Compares them to being asleep dozens of times. Awaiting the resurrection. Or do you think Jesus called Lazarus down from heaven?

The Bible says even David has not yet ascended.

We know of only 3 humans in heaven. Enoch and Elijah....translated alive. And Moses whom God came down and took to heaven. And it wasn’t just his “spirit” ....there is no disembodied spirit. Read Jude........you’ll see an argument between Satan and Michael is Christ....and you’ll read they argued over the BODY Of Moses. But God didn’t argue.....he didn’t care what Satan said.....he took him to the real promised land.

And we know he took Moses because Jesus sees Moses and Elijah on the Mt. Transfiguration. Elijah representing the living who will be translated alive at the 2nd coming....and Moses represented those who sleep in the grave and will come up at the 2nd coming.

See how it all makes sense now.

Let’s try and do better when we study scripture.

Again, from the Hebrew: 1 Samuel 28:8
“And when saw the woman Samuel and she cried out...”

1 Samuel 28:14
“And when Saul KNEW it was Samuel...”

KNEW here is “way-ye-da” in Hebrew. The same “way-ye-da” used when Cain KNOWS his wife (and most of the similar occurrences in Genesis) and when Noah KNEW the waters had receded, and when the sons of Israel KNEW God. Sorry - this isn’t any “gee we thought it was”. When Cain KNEW his wife it wasn’t a pleasurable dream - it happened and she bore children.

STOP USING POOR INTERPRETATIONS OF THE ACTUAL TEXT. And stop making Scripture lie to support your theories. And even if it’s NOT Samuel, what are suggesting it is? It’s something there pronouncing God’s justice on Saul. Who would that disembodied spirit be?