Posted on 05/20/2025 7:54:16 PM PDT by Morgana
A majority of presbyteries in the PCUSA have now approved Amendment 24-C, according to the progressive Covenant Network of Presbyterians (CNP), giving denominational leaders yet another tool in their quest to cull conservatives from being ordained and installed as ministers, elders, and deacons by ensuring that “inclusion and diversity will play a more substantial role in the decision-making.”
The amendment to G-2.0104b of the church’s Book of Order requires presbyteries and sessions to examine candidates on the principles of representation found in another provision, F-1.0403. That important paragraph—which already included “race, ethnicity, age, sex, disability, geography, or theological conviction”—will now also include “sexual orientation” and “gender identity” thanks to the earlier passage of Amendment 24-A.
The CNP states that “Amendment 24-C does not change councils’ freedom to decide whether someone should be ordained; rather, it gives councils more information about candidates’ understandings as they make their decisions.” Put another way, they will be better equipped to know if a candidate is gay affirming, with the goal to then exclude them for being discriminating against “LGBTQ siblings.’
Rev. Brian Ellison, the Executive Director of CNP, was ecstatic at the news, adding:
“This new language provides the church with a rich opportunity for deeper reflection, honest conversation, and authentic discernment. I’m genuinely excited to see the ways these more comprehensive examinations will benefit LGBTQIA+ people, as well as those from other marginalized groups, as they hear more where they stand with those who would serve among them.”
Some of the sample questions that would now be asked of seminary candidates would include:
What would you say to a member of your session if they came to tell you that they couldn’t continue serving as an elder because they disagreed with another elder’s decision to get a divorce?
What has the experience of transgender Christians taught you about faith and ministry?
Talk about a time you have worked with someone with a different race or ethnicity from yourself, and how that affects your understanding of ministry.
What does it look like for you to “be a friend to your colleagues in ministry” who are LGBTQIA+?
Talk about a time someone with a different theological conviction changed your mind about something, and whether that was a good thing.
Come July 4, 2025, the changes to the Book of Order will now read in section F-1.0403:
“The unity of believers in Christ is reflected in the rich diversity of the Church’s membership. In Christ, by the power of the Spirit, God unites persons through baptism, regardless of race, ethnicity, age, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, geography, or theological conviction.
There is therefore no place in the life of the Church for discrimination against any person. The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) shall guarantee full participation and representation in its worship, governance, and emerging life to all persons or groups within its membership. No member shall be denied participation or representation for any reason other than those stated in this Constitution.”
As far as clergy go:
Standards for ordained service reflect the church’s desire to submit joyfully to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in all aspects of life. The council responsible for ordination and/or installation shall examine each candidate’s calling, gifts, preparation, and suitability for the responsibilities of ordered ministry. The examination shall include, but not be limited to, a determination of the candidate’s ability and commitment to fulfill all requirements as expressed in the constitutional questions for ordination and installation and in the principles of participation, representation, and non- discrimination found in F-1.0403. Councils shall be guided by Scripture and the confessions in applying standards to individual candidates.”
Rev. Brian Ellison, the Executive Director of CNP, added:
“This new language provides the church with a rich opportunity for deeper reflection, honest conversation, and authentic discernment. I’m genuinely excited to see the ways these more comprehensive examinations will benefit LGBTQIA+ people, as well as those from other marginalized groups, as they hear more where they stand with those who would serve among them.”
Some of the sample questions that would now be asked of seminary candidates would include:
What has the experience of transgender Christians taught you about faith and ministry?
Talk about a time you have worked with someone with a different race or ethnicity from yourself, and how that affects your understanding of ministry.
What does it look like for you to “be a friend to your colleagues in ministry” who are LGBTQIA+?
Talk about a time someone with a different theological conviction changed your mind about something, and whether that was a good thing.
What would you say to a member of your session if they came to tell you that they couldn’t continue serving as an elder because they disagreed with another elder’s decision to get a divorce?
This comes on the back of the PCUSA ratifying Amendment 24-A
Mary Trump was a member of the Free Church of Scotland. I don't know if it is still orthodox.
Their on-going apostasy sinks to even deeper depths.
I’m still a member of the EPC; they’re not insane.
There’s also the PCA but the one near us is too small to have a youth group for my kid.
“There’s also the PCA “
We attend a PCA church now. In many ways it’s more conservative than Baptist, which I’ve been for 75+ years. We’re glad to have found it.
PCA is the way to go. If you go to PCUSA, you might as well go Episcopal. You won’t hear the gospel there either.
There’s a large PCA church in our area but not near where my kid goes to school, which was disappointing.
The EPC church I go to has a great pastor; I actually remember his sermons. It’s large with a strong Middle School youth group.
The PCA church was just too small.
Someone is gonna have to explain the acronyms for us neophytes. And which one is the good one to attend.
This just means that the PCUSA will continue to lose 10% of their denomination every years, I checked with grok.ai and asked about the decline in membership. Here was the reply.
Yes, the Presbyterian Church (USA) (PCUSA) has experienced a continuous decline in membership every year since 2000. Data from various sources, including PCUSA’s own reports and external analyses, confirm this trend. Here’s a summary of the evidence:
In 2000, PCUSA membership was approximately 2.5 million.
By 2019, membership had dropped to around 1.3 million, reflecting a loss of about 1.2 million members over that period.
The decline continued through 2023, with membership falling to approximately 1.094 million, a loss of nearly 46,000 members from 2022’s 1.14 million.
Specific annual losses include:
2015: 95,107 members lost (5.7% decline).
2016: 89,893 members lost (5.7% decline).
2017: 67,000 members lost (4.5% decline).
2019: 50,000 members lost (3.74% decline).
2021: 51,584 members lost (4.1% decline).
2022: 53,105 members lost (4.5% decline).
2023: 46,000 members lost (4% decline).
Reports consistently note year-over-year declines since the denomination’s formation in 1983, with no recorded year of membership increase since 1965 for its predecessor denominations. The trend has been attributed to factors like aging membership (33.46% of members in 2023 were 71 or older), theological shifts, and broader declines in mainline Protestantism. While the rate of decline has occasionally slowed (e.g., 2019), it has never reversed.
Thus, the loss of membership has indeed continued unabated each year since 2000.
It took me 20 years and a condo’s worth of beer to figure out that the original sin of the PCUSA — like the other liberal denominations was that they sucked up the crap from the higher criticism school in europe at the beginning of the 20th century
Gresham Meachen chronicled what happened at Princeton Theological Seminary and in the denomination. Basically what happened was that the theological seminaries after the 1920’s or so began teaching the low view of Christ.
But the graduates of the seminaries never told their congregations that they no longer believed that jesus was fully God. So the graduating pastors from the seminaries would preach one thing believing one thing and the congregations would hear another thing believing another thing.
This pattern changed the central mystery of Christianity from a reconciliation between man and God and God and man—into a mere human sacrifice. Something really no better than an aztec priest ripping the heart out of a captive and offering it to the sun.
OPC is generally solid.
ARP has some good people; regional, biggest drawback is female deacons, but has held the line there for a number of years.
PCA - lots of solid churches, but use discernment; some cannot be recommended. Slow to root out problems, but generally gets it right in the end.
EPC - generally split from the PCUSA when the PCUSA went pro-abortion. Generally needs more discernment than the PCA, but can be the best option in an area.
ECO - generally split from the PCUSA over homosexuality. Due to decades more of liberal influence, generally should be a last choice.
Then there are the smaller, highly conservative denominations - generally no instruments and exclusive psalmody
Free Church Continuing - rapid growth in recent years in the US
RPCNA
RPCUS
There are some micro denominations as well
Beyond that, there are some in the Dutch tradition. URCNA, RCUS come to mind.
PCUSA has been dead since WW1.
I used to be an elder at a PCUSA church. It was “conservative” to a degree. But the elders from our church were always out-voted at the regional Presbytery (Seattle).
At one regional meeting there was a motion to make sure that there was an equal number of women to men that were elected to attend the national annual meeting. “Due to the historical and on-going patriarchial ....”
We brought up arguments about how qualifications should be based on Biblical views and knowledge and experience rather than the sex of the person. We were outvoted.
Then somebody (a homosexual pastor) raised the motion (against the rules) that every other year a homosexual must be elected to the national meeting.
That passed as well.
I was tempted to bring up another motion that the rule should be more clear, and that it must alternate between a gay male and a lesbian, and that male-to-female and female-to-male transgenders should also be included in the schedule.
This was back in the day that those were the four main types of folks that I could think of. Now with the binaries, pedofiles and beastiality - that homosexual pastor will never get the chance to go again.
(It was shortly after that I quit the PSUSA.)
At a small Presybeterian church once the new associate pastor gave a sermon about how Jesus was not born from a virgin Mary. It was just a story, but somehow it was even MORE important as a story.
My wife and I (newlyweds at the time but long-time members of the church) invited him and the new pastor to our house for dinner.
After dinner I mentioned the sermon, and said “I suppose I already know what you think of Jesus’s resurrection?” (I was right - he didn’t believe that either!) He had graduated from Princeton, and I asked him why they allowed him to graduate with those ideas. (20 years later and the internet I learned that it was at Princeton where he probably got those ideas.)
The new head pastor remained silent. We said thank you for coming for dinner and our conversation. Please take us off the rolls. We were both in the small choir - my wife called him directly to tell him the news. He was just a young guy, but was very spiritual and Biblical and had more sense than the two pastors put together.
Satan is very inclusive. He wants everyone stuck in Hell with him.
Presbyterian Church of America (preaching sound biblical doctrine generally) Presbyterian Church USA (preaching apostacy dressed up as bibical doctrine generally)
Presbyterian Church in America
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