Posted on 11/23/2024 9:33:07 AM PST by ebb tide
Ping
Martin a HERETIC...?
Take the Good with the bad.
No thanks.
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire. Matthew 3:12
The feud between Augustine and Pelagius is an interesting episode in church history, but it’s important to remember that the only real record we have of Pelagius’ position comes from his theological opponents. We have Augustine’s arguments but we really don’t have Pelagius’ words or defense of himself.
Most likely Pelagius wasn’t a heretic and didn’t hold most of the beliefs attributed to him. Augustine though definitely was a heretic (he was a follower of manichaeism), though he later converted to full Christianity and repented of his heresy. Unfortunately later in his life his manichaeist past began to seep back into his work (possibly as an overreaction to his battle against the full synergism attributed to Pelagius and his followers) and he ended up much closer to the Calvinist/Lutheran position than many in the Catholic church would like to admit.
As far as heresy goes, all three probably had heretical beliefs as do most christians today without really knowing it. Whether it’s word of faith, strict monergism, modalism, purgatory, the treasury of merit, etc. there is plenty of heresy to go around.
people love to put Augustine’s writings above those in scripture of the Holy Spirit; they like the patina of intellectual rigor they believe it lends them. They are foolish and it always comes out
Cherry pickers do pick cherries.
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. James Chapter 2
Your funny: arguing Pelagius wasn't a heretic but St Augustine was one.
I didn't know you Pelagians were still around.
No student of church history denies that Augustine started out as a heretic and repented, which is exactly what I wrote. I didn’t argue that Pelagius absolutely wasn’t a heretic, just that we only have the word of his enemies that he was.
Would you want to rely only on the word of Protestant theologians to accurately convey Catholic doctrine?
Are you now claiming St. Augustine was a Protestant?
You seem more interested in conflict than actual discussion, so I’ll leave you to your echo chamber.
You.
See Post #9.
simply believing the Gospel when it says that the work of Salvation is God's alone (no works of man)
*****
Romans can't see the forest because of the trees.
They don't realize that unless it is God Who acts people don't come to a saving faith.
In Romans 5, when one looks at the verbs through the lens of the Greek, one will realize it is God Who is saving the person....not us calling out to God.
Why? Because in our fallen state we are unable to do so.
And the part where Romans will fail is believing they have to go through Mary or that somehow Mary is the one approving people to be saved. Not even close. Just one of the many errors of Roman Catholicism.
The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is entirely a gift of God’s grace, initiated and sustained by Him alone. Human beings cannot earn salvation through their own efforts, as it is fundamentally a work of God’s mercy. Ephesians 2:8–9 is fully embraced by Catholic theology, but Catholics interpret it in the broader context of Scripture, which includes passages about the role of works in the life of faith.
1. Salvation by Grace Through Faith
The Catholic Church wholeheartedly affirms that salvation is by grace through faith, a gift from God. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) states: “Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God” (CCC 1996). No one can merit the initial grace of faith or justification; it is God’s free gift.
Faith as a Response: Catholics understand faith as more than intellectual assent; it is a living, dynamic response to God’s grace that involves trust, obedience, and love. This aligns with Hebrews 11:6, which describes faith as believing in God and seeking to please Him.
2. The Role of Works in Catholic Teaching
The apparent “twist” you mention likely stems from the Catholic emphasis on works in the context of salvation. Let me clarify this:
Works Flow from Grace: Catholics do not believe works earn salvation. Rather, good works are the fruit of a living faith empowered by God’s grace. As Ephesians 2:10 (the verse immediately following your citation) says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Good works are part of God’s plan for those justified by grace.
Faith and Works Together: The Catholic Church teaches that faith and works are inseparable in the life of a believer. This is rooted in James 2:17, 24: “Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead… You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Works, such as acts of charity, obedience to God’s commands, and participation in the sacraments, are expressions of faith, not a means to earn salvation.
The term “merit” in Catholic teaching can cause confusion. Catholics believe that, by God’s grace, humans can cooperate with His will, and their good works, performed in grace, are rewarded by God (Philippians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 3:8). This merit is not a human achievement but a participation in God’s grace, as the Catechism explains: “The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace” (CCC 2008).
3. Grace and Human Cooperation
Synergy of Grace and Free Will: Catholics believe that God’s grace initiates salvation, but humans are called to respond freely to that grace. This cooperation does not diminish God’s sovereignty but reflects His desire to involve human freedom in His plan (2 Corinthians 6:1: “We entreat you not to receive the grace of God in vain”). For example, in Philippians 2:12–13, Paul urges believers to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you.”
And to your reference to Ephesians 2:8–9
Let’s return to the passage you cited:
“It is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”
Catholics fully agree that salvation is by grace through faith, a gift of God. The phrase “not by works” refers to works apart from grace, such as attempts to earn salvation through human effort alone (e.g., following the Mosaic Law without faith, as some in Paul’s time tried to do). The Catholic Church rejects this, teaching that all salvation comes from God’s grace.
Paul’s argument in Ephesians 2 contrasts the new life in Christ with the old life of sin, emphasizing that no one can boast of earning salvation. However, Paul elsewhere affirms the importance of works as a response to grace (e.g., Romans 2:6–7: “He will render to each one according to his works… to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life”).
Catholics seek to integrate the entirety of Scripture, which includes both faith and works, grace and cooperation. This can appear complex compared to a streamlined emphasis on sola fide, but it reflects the Catholic commitment to the full biblical witness.
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