Revelation Ch. 17 and 2 Corinthians Ch. 13

"So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

"For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you."

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: 3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. 4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. 7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. 8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. 9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction. 11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. 12 Greet one another with an holy kiss. 13 All the saints salute you. 14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. (The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.)

Good morning. Thanks for posting.

Yesterday you posted Revelation 18, today Revelation 17. Perhaps this is in part to address some of the questions I raised yesterday.

Revelation 17 is more specific about the nature of the allegory being described. It ends with this:

And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth.

Clearly in 80 A.D. Rome would have been "the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth".

Conversely, we might assume it is meant about modern times. What city today has dominion over the kings of the Earth? Or, has that city yet to be built?

These two ways of looking at Revelation are both interesting. Yesterday I quoted some reference material that descibed the various was of interpreting Revelation.

Here is an interpretation (from the web site Revelation Made Clear) that is in keeping with the Preterist view of Revelation (that is it applies mostly to the time of the writing): |

Revelation 16 described the fall of Babylon the great. We noticed in chapter 13 that the beast called Babylon the great refers to the Roman Empire that ruled from approximately 27 BC to 476 AD. Chapters 17 and 18 of Revelation reveal the details of the collapse of the Roman Empire. The details concerning the pouring out of the seven bowls of wrath are now given and explained in chapters 17-18. This is the point of the first two verses of Revelation 17. One of the seven angels who had poured out one of the bowls tells John that he “will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters.”
The image of the great prostitute sitting on many waters immediately indicates for us what the great prostitute represents. The harlot/prostitute image is used of wicked cities by the Old Testament prophets. Ninevah (Nahum 3:4), Tyre (Isaiah 23:16-17), and Jerusalem (Ezekiel 16:15) are a few cities that are called harlots because of their great immoralities.
This great harlot in Revelation 17:1 is described as “sitting on many waters.” Verse 15 tells us what this image means. “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.” The great harlot is the city that is ruling over the peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages of the earth.
Therefore, the wicked city in view is Rome.
This fits our context well. Remember that the angel is explaining the details of the judgment in the seven bowls of wrath. The seven bowls of wrath were judgments against the Roman Empire, the beast. It would not make sense to see the great prostitute as another worldly city. Rather, the city of Rome is the heart of the problem and the center of the immorality and idolatry. This is the image of verse 2 concerning the great prostitute. She is the one whom “the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.”
We have noted throughout this study that sexual immorality is a symbol for the idolatry that is being committed (Hosea 4:11-12; Ezekiel 6:9; Ezekiel 16:15-17; Revelation 2:14,20). Notice that Revelation 17:2 is the same description that was given in Revelation 14:8. “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality” (Revelation 14:8 ESV).
This is Rome that has been causing the world to worship the emperor and be involved in idolatry. Therefore, we know the great prostitute is the city of Rome and the beast is the empire that Rome ruled. The rest of this chapter is going to give us the details about these two entities and their coming judgment.

So, that's a good summary of the Preterist interpretation, but what about the Futurist view, which is often associated with Millennialism.

Millennialism is a belief which is held by some religious denominations. According to this belief, a Messianic Age will be established on Earth prior to the Last Judgment and the future permanent state of the "eternity"

Somewhat confusingly, different groups of Christians have pretty different views about the Thousand Years mentioned in Revelation.

Premillennialism, in Christian eschatology, is the belief that Jesus will physically return to the Earth (the Second Coming) before the Millennium, heralding a literal thousand-year messianic age of peace. Premillennialism is based upon a literal interpretation of Revelation 20:1–6 in the New Testament, which describes Jesus's reign in a period of a thousand years.

This idea usually informs premillennialsit interpretation of Revelation 17, too. If the "Thousand Years" at the end is literal, then Babylon the Great is logically adjacent to these end time events, and not the completed prophecy concerning Rome that the Preterists believe it to be.

Premillennialism is in contrast to amillennialism and postmillennialism beliefs.
Amillennialism interprets Revelation 20:1–6 as pertaining to the present time, and holds that Christ currently reigns in Heaven with the departed saints. This interpretation views the symbolism of Revelation as referring to a spiritual conflict between Heaven and Hell rather than a physical conflict on Earth.
Amillennialists do not view the thousand years mentioned in Revelation as a literal thousand years, but see the number "thousand" as symbolic and numerological and see the kingdom of Christ as already present in the church beginning with the Pentecost in the book of Acts.

Whereas:

The Postmillennialists hold to the view that the Second Coming will happen after the millennium.

These different views of the meaning of Revelation are some of the main differences between different sects and denominations of Christianity. (using same links above)

Amillenialist: Denominations such as Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Anglicanism, Presbyterianism and Lutheranism are generally amillennial.
Premillenialist: Between 1790 and the mid-19th century, premillennialism was a popular view among English Evangelicals, even within the Anglican church. Thomas Macaulay observed this and wrote "Many Christians believe that the Messiah will shortly establish a kingdom on the earth, and visibly reign over all its inhabitants."
Throughout the 19th century, premillennialism continued to gain wider acceptance in both the US and in Britain, particularly among the Irvingites, Plymouth Brethren, Christadelphians, Church of God, Christian Israelite Church. Premillennialism continues to be popular among Evangelical, Fundamentalist Christian, and Living Church of God communities in the 20th and 21st centuries, expanding further into the churches of Asia, Africa and South America."

I found this diagram in the article linked above on Premillennialism. I found it helpful to visualize these different ideas about what the millenium described in Revelation means, and how it sits in comparision with other events in Christian eschetology.

As always, I would enjoy hearing others views on this topic, hopefully keeping the disucssion pleasant and respectful.

For the Preterists the Babylon of Revelation 17 is historic Rome, as discussed above. In re-reading my post I realized that I did not delve into the question of "which city is Babylon" from the Futurist / Millennialist point of view. So here's a bit on that.

The short answer is, once again: opinions differ.

Some feel that Babylon the Great exists only in the spiritual realm, others that it's a specific city. Some say it's Rome, and that Rome will rise again to great prominence. Others say it is some current nation, entity or city.

Here is one person who argues that Babylon the Great in the endtimes is the United States. This is a long article, I've just posted a few highlights:

The book of Revelation gives more attention to an entity called “Babylon the Great” than to any other single subject, with more than two chapters (17:1–19:4) dedicated to a discussion of this entity. As it is presented in that section, Babylon the Great is clearly the most significant player in the world of the end times. As such, its identification ought to be obvious to anyone living in the end times.
However, at present pretribulational dispensationalists are badly divided as to the interpretation of these chapters, and commentators who do not follow a strictly futuristic view of Revelation 4–22 add even more interpretations to the mix. The lack of consensus on the identification of a prophetic entity that ought to be plainly evident indicates that none of the prevailing views does justice to the text of the book of Revelation, resulting in a state of confusion.
This article will argue that Babylon the Great is the United States of America, and that this identification is definitive and excludes all other possibilities.
The Identification of Babylon the Great as the Great World Superpower of the End Times
A study of Revelation 17:1–19:4 shows that Babylon the Great is the world’s great superpower in the end times. The following facts emerge from an analysis of this section of the book of Revelation:
(1) Babylon the Great has the largest economy of any entity in the world. It is the center of wealth in the world, and it is responsible for an extended period of global wealth creation in the end times.
(2) Babylon the Great has shaped global culture in the end times, in a directly antichristian manner.
(3) Babylon the Great has the greatest political power of any entity in the end times.
(4) Babylon the Great is considered to have the strongest military in the world of the end times.
All of these characteristics uniquely and definitively match the United States of America. For exegetical details, see the larger paper.

Of course other premillennialist sources have identified other entities as The Great Babylon.

One of the most popular identifications is that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon.

This theory caused some political controversy about a decade ago when it was associated with the Pentacostal Televangelist Rev. John Hagee, who at the time had endorsed John McCain for President. Eventually Hagee apologized for some of his statements, which put that event to rest. But the belief has a long history:

During the Medieval Age, reformers and critics within the Catholic Church (some who eventually were elevated to sainthood) equated the papacy with the whore of Babylon, specifically for its internal corruption, practice of simony, and most importantly, its political maneuvering to enhance its earthly powers and dominions.
Leaders of the Protestant movement (i.e., Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Knox, Wesley), strengthened this association by generalizing the entire Church as corrupt, rather than a more complex analysis that would criticize specific periods and/or popes.
The pope as Antichrist, leading the Catholic Church as whore into apostasy, was not only a mainstream interpretation during the rise of Protestantism, but
has remained a popular interpretation, especially among many fundamentalists, dispensationalists and right-leaning evangelicals today.

Besides those two identifications (The Catholic Church, The United States of America) there are many others. It's awkward and unpleasant to go around accusing modern-day entities of being the Whore of Babylon, so personally I avoid making those sorts of accusations, but those beliefs are out there, and more prevalent than one might guess.

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