Who Is Israel and the Demise of Dispensationalism

Prophecy Questions Blog ^ | February 1, 2024 | Charles S. Meek

[justme4now]

Line spaces and paragraphs would be a big help!😟

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Agree, but it wasn’t cooperating!

[Angelino97]

Yet the “Hail Mary” prayer is constructed from lines drawn from the Gospel of Luke.

[cowboyusa]

Is she blessed amoung women, yes. Was she born sinless, no. Only YESHUA was, and he is the only mediator.
.

[daniel1212]

Old Covenant Judaism is not a “branch.” Rather, it is a DEAD TREE: ..God’s people are now SPIRITUAL Israel and specifically not fleshly Israel of the Old Testament. “Not all Israel is Israel.”...Old Covenant Judaism is not a “branch.” Rather, it is a DEAD TREE: “The axe is already laid at the root of the tree; therefore, every tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. “ (Matthew 3:10)

Old Covenant Judaism a DEAD TREE; God’s people are now SPIRITUAL Israel, yet as a man named Paul clearly states,

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. (Romans 11:23 [KJV])

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:25-29 [KJV])

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (Romans 11:32 [KJV])

More: ISRAEL: CHOSEN OR FORGOTTEN?, by the grace of God.

Dispensationalists, who teach that the land promises to ethnic Israel are forever, and that the temple will be rebuilt complete with animal sacrifices are reading something into the text that is not there.

You are mixing truth with falsehood. Denying the literal 1,000 year reign of Christ is removing something from the text that is there, with its Day of Christ, and what follows.

And those who die in that obedient faith will go to be forever with Him at death or His return, at "the first resurrection," (Revelation 20:5) “the resurrection of life, ” (Jn. 5:29a) "of the just." (Luke 14:14) For wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for those who die in that effectual faith then it is with the Lord, at death or His return (whatever comes first), by the grace of God. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) In contrast to those who were never born of the Spirit or who terminally fall away. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:12; 10:25-39)

And who then be rulers under Christ in His literal 1,000 year reign: “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:6)

* After which the “great and notable day of the Lord” ‘ (Acts 2:20) culminates in the Great White Throne judgment, with “the resurrection of damnation” (Jn. 5:29b) and their judgment which occurs 1,000 years after “the first resurrection” (Rv. 20:6) the “resurrection of life, (”(Jn. 5:29a) and in which judgment believers will be part of the jury in the judgment of men and angels (1 Corinthians 6:3)

Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:8-15; cf. 2 Corinthians 5:10)

For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. (1 Corinthians 4:4-5)

And the best i see it, believers will first also go with the Lord to fight in the Battle or Armageddon and afterwards reign with Him for a 1,000 years, and then act as judges in the final judgment:

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:14)

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14-15)

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:19-20)

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Revelation 20:1-3)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4-6)

Now obviously all these who go to be forever with the Lord, and fight for and with Him, and are judged as to reward, and rule for Him are all believers. All before the final judgment. And in which judgment the two classes are also manifest, with the sheep being testified to as those who had effectual faith, versus those whose deeds evidenced the contrary (see further below).

And in which believers shall be judges:

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Corinthians 6:3) As Jude said, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed.."

Yet which final judgment occurs after the devil is loosed for one final test of man, as he leads a multitude in rebellion against the Lord and His elect in a renewed world.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:7-10)

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15)

For the lost have been in Hades with the selfish man of Luke 16, but like as believers were in Heaven yet not specifically rewarded for their faith (cf. Heb. 10:35) until the Lord's return, so also the unbelievers have not yet been sentenced to their degree of punishment relative to their works and accountability. And there are differences:

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. (Matthew 11:23-24)

Note that Catholics and preterites are clearly in error in denying the literal thousand year reign of Christ in which there can be forgiveness for the lost who survived the great tribulation, while believers are as angels. And as regards the myth of RC Purgatory and the attempt to justify it by referencing forgiveness in the age to come, (Matthew 12:32) , it is this 1,000 year reign which Catholicism, denies that is "the age to come" in which there is forgiveness, for not all in the earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ are believers, as some flesh survived the great tribulation, thus while in the millennium the Lord "shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young (Isaiah 40:11) yet speaking of the same period we also read, And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Revelation 19:15)

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. (Zechariah 14:16-18)

All need to turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save + be baptized + follow Him!)

[Elsie]

We Catholics keep telling you Prots, we don’t worship the pope or Mary.

But your ACTIONS tend to say something much different.

[Elsie]

 

 All the Words of Mary...
...as recorded in the Bible.

---

 

 

 ...To the angel

And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word.  (St Luke 1:34, 38   D-RC 1752)

 

 

 

...To Elizabeth

And Mary said: “My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me—holy is his name. His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation. He has performed mighty deeds with his arm; he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts. He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble. He has filled the hungry with good things but has sent the rich away empty. He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be merciful to Abraham and his descendants forever, even as he said to our fathers.” (Luke 1:46-55)

 

 

 ...To Jesus

His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”  (Luke 2:48-50)

 

 

... at Cana

And when the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”

His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it” (John 2:3-5).

[daniel1212]

. We Catholics keep telling you Prots, we don’t worship the pope or Mary.

Repeating it will not make it true. Catholic ascriptions of attributes, praise, adulation (worship) to Mary (More can be seen at this link (The up mark ^ points to the last referenced source.). The Catholic manner of "adulation" can constitute worship in Scripture (Words for worship in the NT (http://peacebyjesus.net/Words_used_for_worship.html), yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

The practice of praying to departed saints and Mary was one that developed, helped by pagan influences, for Scripture provides no example of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven by the Lord, and reveals that doing otherwise was a practice of pagans, including to the “Queen of Heaven.” (Jer. 44:17-19, 25). The Catholic Encyclopedia speculates that a further reinforcement of Marian devotion,

"was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. This at least is the common opinion among scholars, though it would perhaps be dangerous to speak too positively. Evidence regarding the popular practice of the early centuries is almost entirely lacking...,” (Catholic Encyclopedia > Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary)

Mary is not deified by Catholics but rather venerated.

Word games. Claiming Mary is not being worshiped because you do not use a certain word for it simply does not negate what is often too obvious. One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing supernatural attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

[daniel1212]

I bring it up because Protestants are always brow-beating Catholics for the Eucharist or Sacrament of Penance. “You don’t need that for salvation!”

Because while a few Catholics of simple pious penitent faith can be born again (since salvation requires more of the heart than the head - Ps. 34:18; Luke 23:39-43) as I was, yet distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly God-inspired, substantive, authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels)

Then these Dispensationalists talk as if “But you need to support Israel."

No, I do not see that being made a condition for salvation, but of soundly rightly dividing the word of Truth. And you as a RC are to believe that before the Lord's second coming the body of Christ - which where judgment must first begin (1 Peter 4:17; Ezekiel 9:3-6) - must pass through a final tribulation .[Cf. Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12] will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" of religious deception by the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. And of Lord's second coming being suspended until his recognition by "all Israel", - what is left of it - a reversal of the judicial curse, and which inclusion of the Jews salvation takes place after "the full number of the Gentiles" have entered into the body of Christ by faith in Him.

The redeemed are those who have been spiritually born of the Spirit (Jn. 3:2-7) by effectual, penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating faith in the Divine Son of God sent be the Father to be the Savior of the world, (1 Jn. 4:14) who saves sinners by His sinless shed blood, on His account. And which faith is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and which is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47; Jn. 10:27, 28) whom they shall go to be with or His return (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb, 12:22,23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) In contrast to those who were never born of the Spirit or who terminally fall away. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:12; Heb. 10:25-39) Glory and thanks be to God.

[Elsie]

 But when an apparition comes along, it says a LOT more than Mary did in the bible.

 

 

 

Jerusalem

Rome

Psalm 34     Of David. When he pretended to be insane before Abimelek, who drove him away, and he left.    1 I will extol the LORD at all times; his praise will always be on my lips.    2 I will glory in the LORD; let the afflicted hear and rejoice.    3 Glorify the LORD with me; let us exalt his name together.    4 I sought the LORD, and he answered me; he delivered me from all my fears.    5 Those who look to him are radiant; their faces are never covered with shame.    6 This poor man called, and the LORD heard him; he saved him out of all his troubles.    7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them.    8 Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.    9 Fear the LORD, you his holy people, for those who fear him lack nothing.  10 The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the LORD lack no good thing.  11 Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD.  12 Whoever of you loves life and desires to see many good days,  13 keep your tongue from evil and your lips from telling lies.  14 Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.  15 The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, and his ears are attentive to their cry;  16 but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil, to blot out their name from the earth.  17 The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles.  18 The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.  19 The righteous person may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all;  20 he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.  21 Evil will slay the wicked; the foes of the righteous will be condemned.  22 The LORD will rescue his servants; no one who takes refuge in him will be condemned.

The15 promises   Of 'Mary' (Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan de la Roche) 1 Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall receive powerful graces. 2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the Rosary. 3. The Rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies. 4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the hearts of people from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means. 5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish. 6. Whoever shall recite the Rosary devoutly, applying Himself to the consideration of its Sacred Mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise Him in His justice, he shall not perish by an unprovided death; if he be just, he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life. 7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church. 8. Those who are faithful to recite the Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plentitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the Saints in Paradise. 9. I  shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary. 10. The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven. 11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary. 12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities. 13. I  have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the Rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death. 14. All who recite the Rosary are my children, and brothers and sisters of my only Son, Jesus Christ. 15. Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.

 

Choose ye this day...

 

 

 

[Elsie]

And before we get all tangled up in whether or not Mary REMAINED a virgin, let's take a look at Matthew 1:25.

(Any translation will work...)

Matthew 1:25 - Bible Gateway

 

[Elsie]

Most every reply I make here is done using words common to the English language. (with a few exeptions)

[gitmo]

I’ll take door number two.

[gitmo]

Thank you for your post.

[Elsie]

Because while a few Catholics of simple pious penitent faith can be born again (since salvation requires more of the heart than the head - Ps. 34:18; Luke 23:39-43) as I was, yet distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly God-inspired, substantive, authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels)

 

 

The Bereans get called NOBLE because... WHY???

They searched the SCRIPTURES daily to see if what they were being told was true.

 

Acts 17:11

 

 

 

Sounds like a good method of study to me.

[Elsie]

I chose that door and got a GOAT!

[fatboy]

“...Dispensationalism is not dead....”
___________________________________

I agree. It is and always has been the minority view because it assumes that regular students of the Scriptures and guided by the Holy Spirit can understand plain language and can and will apply it to define their theology as opposed to letting their theology define their understanding of the Word of God.

What really hurts dispensationalism is that many who claim it as their belief system do not take the time to truly understand it.

And it all starts with the Abrahamic Covenant. Get that one wrong and things start to go sideways in a hurry.

[circlecity]

“Chajin said nothing about salvation being dependent on one’s view of the Jew’s or modern day Israel.”

if being “out of God’s will” is not referring to salvation then it is a meaningless platitude.

[daniel1212]

Both those who believe in a restored Israel and those who believe that the Church has replaced Israel have a place in the Church. However, I have sat through classes on Revelations being taught by those with the replacement view. They have to resort to a lot of “spiritualized” interpretations during the description of John being transported to Heaven during the end times.

Not mention the majority of the 49 chapters of Ezekiel, plus much of Zechariah. That is a lot of spiritualization and exclusion. And we are to imagine that the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, are heard no more at all in Israel. (cf. Revelation 18:22 [KJV])

[daniel1212]

Free Republic Posting Form Enhancer https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/4050544/posts?page=1 can help, thank God