Free Republic
Browse · Search
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

BIBLIANO and AMIGO: Discussions on Eschatology (Lesson #1, Coming on Clouds)
Prophecy Questions Blog ^ | November 14, 2023 | Charles S. Meek

Posted on 11/29/2023 4:37:54 PM PST by grumpa

“They will see the Son of Man Coming on clouds of heaven. . . . Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass until all these things take place.” (Matthew 24:30, 34)

AMIGO: The Second Coming! Now that will be a glorious day.

BIBLIANO: What if I told you that the “Second Coming” already happened?

AMIGO: I’d say you were completely nuts. (Under his breath: And I would unfriend you on Facebook.)

BIBLIANO: This text certainly seems to say that Jesus taught that He would return in his own generation. Right?

AMIGO: Well, “this generation” must mean some future generation.

BIBLIANO: My friend, the New Testament is perfectly clear. Every time the phrase “this generation” is found it means the generation of people living in the first century. Just look up these passages: Matthew 11:16; 12:38-45; 23:29-39; Luke 17:25 as examples.

AMIGO: Whoa. This is not what the TV rapture preachers teach. Don’t tell me that David Jeremiah, Perry Stone, and Hal Lindsey could all be wrong!

BIBLIANO: The point is whether Jesus was wrong. Either He was wrong—or people have misunderstood what our Lord meant by his Parousia, i.e. his “Second Coming.” I believe it is the latter. Jesus was saying that He would come IN JUDGMENT against Old Covenant Israel, just like YHWH came numerous times in the Old Testament.

AMIGO: Actually, Bib, I’m perfectly happy believing the world is about to end. But if Jesus’ credibility is at stake, I better figure this out. Tell me more.

BIBLIANO: There are some two dozen other passages that teach the same imminent return of Jesus, for example, Matthew 10:23; 26:64; Hebrews 10:37; Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6-20; etc. We can’t just put our head in the sand and be faithful to Scripture. Just picking another passage, when do you think that Matthew 16:27-28 was fulfilled?

AMIGO: Well, to tell you the truth, I have pretty much ignored that passage because it seems to say that Jesus would return while some of his disciples were still alive. But perhaps it means the Transfiguration or Pentecost.

BIBLIANO: Amigo, there are several reasons why it could not be either of those. For example, Matthew 16:27-28 is about judgment, and there was no judgment at either the Transfiguration or Pentecost.

AMIGO: What judgment could have occurred while some of those living in the first century were still alive?

BIBLIANO: Well, Jesus told the Jews of his day that He would judge THEM for their apostate condition and refusal to accept Him as the Messiah. Consider Matthew 21:33-46; 22:1-14; 23:29-39, 24:1-8, where Jesus warned the Jews that He would take the kingdom away from them, burn their city, destroy their temple, and give the kingdom to another group. This all happened in AD 70, when the Lord used the Roman army to destroy Jerusalem and the temple.

AMIGO: But what about the clouds?

BIBLIANO: In the Old Testament, CLOUDS are used symbolically to portray God’s presence or judgment. People did not see God literally, but saw what He did, for example Psalm 18:4-15; Jeremiah 4:5-31; Isaiah 19:1-5.

AMIGO: I’ve been a Christian all my life and NOBODY ever pointed out these passages to me.

BIBLIANO: I have good news for you. Jesus was not a false prophet. He came in the manner and time that He predicted.

TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: clouds; coming; generation; second
For more on eschatology see my website:


1 posted on 11/29/2023 4:37:54 PM PST by grumpa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: grumpa

2 Thessalonians 2

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

2 posted on 11/29/2023 4:52:50 PM PST by Raycpa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Raycpa


3 posted on 11/29/2023 5:01:38 PM PST by Flaming Conservative ((Pray without ceasing))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Raycpa

Who was the Man of Lawlessness/Man of Sin of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8? Let’s first note the context:

1. The “mystery of lawlessness” was already at work when Paul was writing this letter (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7).

2. The Man of Lawlessness would take his seat in the temple (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

3. Paul promised his readers that God would soon grant THEM (his first century readers) relief from persecution (2 Thessalonians 1:4, 7)

If Paul was a true prophet, these things happened while at least some of his readers were still alive. So, we should be looking for a first-century culprit―before the destruction of the temple in AD 70. To place this prophecy’s fulfillment thousands of years later does violence to the text.

Most Christians fail to appreciate the upheaval among the Jews inside the walls of Jerusalem prior to and during the Roman siege in AD 66-70. A group called the Zealots, a Jewish rebel terrorist group, perpetrated a civil war to incite the Jewish leadership to fight the Romans. Another rebel faction, the Idumeans (i.e., Edomites, an outside group with some Jewish heritage) aided the Zealots for a time. If it weren’t for these murderous rebels, the Jews might well have maintained peace with Rome.

Jerusalem was in a period of absolute mayhem in the AD 60’s, culminating in the Jewish-Roman War of AD 66-73. The Zealot rebels were against the Romans as well as against moderate factions of Jewish leadership. The rebels themselves were not united. It seemed that everybody was fighting each other.

Ananus ben Ananus (“ben” means “son of”), leader of the moderate faction and the high priest in 63 AD, wanted peace. (Ananus is also spelled Ananias.) But the Zealots were increasingly belligerent by AD 66, and incited the Romans to war. While war was waging, in AD 68, the Idumeans assassinated Ananus and another former Jewish high priest (Joshua ben Gamala). (Of note, Ananus was the leader who ordered the execution of James, the brother of Jesus, in AD 62.) Thousands more were murdered by the various rebel forces.

There were seeds of the rebellion brewing even while Paul was writing to the Thessalonians in the early-to-mid 50s AD. Hezekiah the Zealot was already stirring the pot in AD 47.

The Man of Lawlessness could be any of several fellows, including four Zealot leaders:

Eleazar ben Ananus was the ruthless original instigator of the rebellion. He was the captain of the temple guard, second in command to the High Priest. His lawless deeds make him a strong candidate for the Man of Lawlessness. He literally sat in the temple and acted lawlessly in the manner the Apostle Paul describes in 2 Thessalonians 2. Josephus in Wars of the Jews railed against Eleazar as a tyrant, but more than that―acting as if he were a god in his lawlessness, abominations, and atrocities.

Eleazar apparently was responsible for convincing the priests to discontinue the practice of accepting offerings on behalf of aliens, namely the Roman rulers. This challenged the Roman authorities and signaled the revolt against Rome. In AD 66 Eleazar’s soldiers murdered Roman soldiers in the city who had laid down their arms.

The Roman army, under Cestius Gallus, then attacked Jerusalem to put down the rebellion, but retreated. The Jews claimed victory. But the victory was short-lived as Nero sent his army under Vespasian and his son Titus to siege Jerusalem in AD 67, finally destroying the city and temple in AD 70. Eleazar also led the Idumeans for a time. He was the son of Ananus, the most powerful former high priest at the time, and brother of Caiaphas.

John Levi of Gischala is another strong possibility. As one of the Zealot leaders, he set himself up in the temple as the Jewish Savior (as God). He desecrated the temple in about AD 68, including emptying vessels of sacred wine and oil used in temple rituals and melted down many sacred utensils, etc. He also plundered the people, even burning their storehouses of food, causing a great famine that starved tens of thousands to death.

Eleazar ben Simon (another radical who was unable to establish unity with John of Gischala). Eleazar made the temple his central command post for the entire first half of the Jewish-Roman War, and oversaw many lawless acts in the temple.

Simon ben Gioras was leader of yet another murderous Jewish rebel group that initially opposed the Zealots, but as the Roman attack became more serious, he aligned with the Zealots against the Romans. Each of the previous three commanded their own separate regiment of soldiers.

Others argue that Nero was The Man of Lawlessness. Nero was the Roman emperor from AD 54-68. The proponents of Nero argue that the description of the man of lawlessness echoes that of Daniel’s “little horn” (Daniel 7:8, 20, 21; 9:9-12; cf. 11:31, 36) and foreshadows John’s description of the beast from the sea (Revelation 13:1-8)―characters which can be identified as Nero.

Titus, the Roman general that conquered Jerusalem, is also a possibility. Like Antiochus Epiphanies 200 years before him, Titus defiled the temple in AD 70 by offering pagan sacrifices and setting himself up as “imperator” (supreme ruler)―before his men destroyed the temple. (Josephus’ Wars of the Jews 6.6.1).

The rebels even burned the stores of food, attempting to starve their moderate Jewish opponents into submission to fight the Romans, creating great hardship for the Jews. This civil war was ultimately devastating to the Jews and their stand against the Romans.

But wait! Wasn’t this supposed to happen at Jesus’ Parousia―at the Day of the Lord (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2, 8)? Well, notice in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 that many Christians thought that the Day of the Lord HAD ALREADY HAPPENED. They obviously had a different idea about what the Day of the Lord was than many modern Christians. They did not think it meant the end of the world.

The Day of the Lord is used throughout the Old Testament about God’s judgments on various nations (Isaiah 13:9; Jeremiah 46:10; Lamentations 2:22; Ezekiel 30:2-4; Amos 5:18-22; etc.). Paul’s imminent first-century Day of the Lord was the coming judgment against apostate Old Covenant Israel for her sins and failure to accept Jesus as Messiah (Matthew 23:29-24:2). This happened in AD 70 when Jerusalem was destroyed and the temple reduced to rubble. The gospels make it clear that the Day of the Lord would come upon the Jews (Matthew 3:11-12; 8:12; 10:23; 16:27-28; 21:33-46; 22:7; 23:34-24:2; Luke 19:41-44; 21:20-24 etc.)

Did Jesus really “come” in AD 70? Well, He certainly promised that his Parousia (effective divine presence) would be while some in the first century were still alive (Matthew 10:23; 16:27-28; 24:29-34; 26:64; John 21:22; Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6-20). If you can accept that Jesus came IN JUDGMENT in AD 70, then all of the passages above fit perfectly. You don’t have to make excuses for Jesus, Paul, or the other writers of the New Testament. The relief from persecution by the Jews promised by Paul to the Thessalonian Christians in the first century happened when the Roman army decimated the Old Covenant order and the Jewish ability to persecute Christians. This is precisely how God extracted his judgment in the Old Testament―sending an opposing army to conquer the offenders.

4 posted on 11/29/2023 5:12:46 PM PST by grumpa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: grumpa
This generation is the generation of my Heavenly Father's children that were born of the Spit in the spirit realm, who being regenerated and the sold-out irreversible possession of their Savior, Brother, Friend, Master, and Lord; a generation that has been pouring into the family by new birth since the day of Pentecost and lasting until the day of their sudden ascent to Him in the clouds. That is the generation bot of physical birth into the world by a human father, but of spiritual birth into Heaven by their Heavenly Father; a single 2,000-year long period of rebirth into the inhertance of eternal blessed existence in communion with God. As promised (John 3:16).
5 posted on 11/29/2023 6:13:51 PM PST by imardmd1 (To learn is to live. To live is to teach another. Fiat Lux!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: imardmd1; grumpa
The upper boundary of the process of forming this generation's populace that is to be "caught up" ("Harpadzo" in Greek; "Rapiere" in Latin, Anglicized by language-cognizant theologians as "Rapture") being the completion of the Age of Grace, which dispensation entailed the Bestowment of the abiding gift of the Indwelling Holy Spirit to the Accepted(Eph. 1:6) constituent of the figurative-literal Bride of The Messiah.
6 posted on 11/29/2023 6:42:36 PM PST by imardmd1 (To learn is to live. To live is to teach another. Fiat Lux!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: imardmd1
Corrections to my Post #5:


born of the Spit Spirit in the spiritual realm

That is the generation bot not of physical birth into the world by a human father, . . .

8 posted on 11/29/2023 6:53:08 PM PST by imardmd1 (To learn is to live. To live is to teach another. Fiat Lux!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794 is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson