Posted on 11/12/2023 5:34:47 AM PST by Roman_War_Criminal
End Times Ping
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Maranatha!
I don’t believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. That said, if there is one, I am all aboard. Many say Christians will not suffer God’s wrath, wrath and tribulations are different. Paul, John, Peter, and many, many Christians have suffered tribulations.
The saints that judge with Jesus during the 1000 year reign come out of the tribulation.
Revelation 20:4 NASBS
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Jesus told us:
Matthew 24:21-22 NASBS
For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. [22] Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Jesus also said:
Matthew 24:9-10 NASBS
“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. [10] At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
I am also aware of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, but many stop and don’t include 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 are the verses that many base their belief in the rapture. Reading 5:1-6 sheds some light on 4:13-18.
Here’s my position. If I expect to go through trials and even though the tribulation and there is a rapture and I don’t have to go through the tribulation, no harm.
On the other hand, if someone believes they will not have to go through the tribulation because they expect the rapture and find themselves in the middle of the tribulation, they may fall away. They may become those Jesus spoke of:
Matthew 24:10 NASBS
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
I pray that all come to faith in Jesus and stay true to that faith that their names are not erased.
Revelation 3:5 NASBS
He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
We must remember, there are those that will fall by the wayside. The Bible says so. It even says:
Proverbs 16:4 NASBS
The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Many share that belief.
Most Christians have a very difficult time wrapping their head around the difference between Tribulation and Wrath.
Just like they do with Salvation, Regeneration, and Sanctification.
Acts 14:22 states this:
“strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “It is through many tribulations that we must enter the kingdom of God.”
Scripture clearly lays out the case for The PreTribulation Rapture. It’s not some phony doctrine that Darby made up either since Jesus, Peter, John, and Paul all wrote about it long before.
You are free to believe whatever you want and may you go in peace doing so.
I however, will continue to “Watch the Day Approaching” like I was admonished to by The Lord Jesus Christ.
We are told we won’t know the day or hour...
but we can know when it is at the door. Given how much Bible prophecy has already been revealed, how much closer to the door could it get?....I can think of nothing.
A thousand years isn’t really that long in history. What comes after?
No doubt we’re in the time of the end.
The exact timing of it has always been an ace up God’s Sleeve because he has to catch Satan and the world off guard with this event. IMHO, watching this over the past 30 years I would say Satan is doing everything he can to stop the final 7 years (Daniel’s 70th week) from happening.
Technology is the key.
We know we have a final 7 year kingdom (Daniel 9) that must rule before The Lord Returns and Israel calls upon Him (Zechariah 12).
The technology that Revelation 13 states about “marking the masses” with the capabilities to buy and sell is rolling out now. I work in this industry and it is terrifying what data TPTB have on everybody.
Yet, if you hear Elon Musk, Richard Branson, Jensen Huang others talk - they will tell you about colonizing Mars, the Moon, and creating space colonies in 10 years or less.
That will never happen if you believe Scripture because the Book of Revelation states over and over again that the final 28 Judgements (Seals, Trumpets, Bowls, Thunders) will happen on “Earth Dwellers”. That phrase is used over and over again - for a total of 11 times in Revelation.
Something happens that prevents our current Technology increase to cease.
What could it be?
Again, there is the failure to distinguish between general tribulation and persecution, and the Great Tribulation, which is God’s dealing with Israel and the world inn judgment.
If you conflate the two, then Bible prophecy makes no sense. When you recognize the difference, then it does.
“I however, will continue to ‘Watch the Day Approaching’ like I was admonished to by The Lord Jesus Christ.”
It is impossible to watch for the approaching day (of the Lord) unless it is preceded by signs. And these preceding signs prove that the pre-trib concept of imminence is not biblical.
Christ’s return is imminent in the sense of being certain. He will come. But that Day (of the Lord) will NOT come until certain other things come first. This includes the apostasy and revealing of the antichrist at the abomination of desolation in the MIDDLE of Daniel’s 70th week, according to Second Thessalonians 2. So, the idea that He might return at any moment (right now before all the signs have happened) is not biblical. Those who watch for His coming will know when His coming becomes imminent, in the sense of being at any moment.
Luke 21:28 NKJV
Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.
The word “begin” in this passage indicates that when the actual signs happen, they will happen quickly. This also seems to be the context of the “this generation” comment in the same discourse.
Matthew 24:33 NKJV
So you also, when you see ALL [emphasis added] these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
Watching is the key to not being surprised at Christ’s coming:
Revelation 3:3 NKJV
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
I Thessalonians 5:4-6 NKJV
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
We do not know the day or hour now. But when we see the signs He gave us we will know the hour. We will not be surprised when the Day of Christ comes. We do not quit our jobs, forgo having jobs, marriage, families, etc. now. We do not stand outside looking up at the sky and think He might return at any moment. But when the signs have occurred we will be looking up with any-moment anticipation.
Acts 1:10-11 NKJV
And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
“Yet... Elon Musk [and] others... will tell you about colonizing Mars, the Moon, and creating space colonies... That will never happen if you believe Scripture because the Book of Revelation states over and over again that the final 28 Judgements... will happen on ‘Earth Dwellers’. That phrase is used over and over again.”
There are already people living off-planet (on the space station) full-time. Likely, there will never be a time between now and Christ’s return in which there are no humans at all living off-planet.
I was raised in the pre-trib rapture belief. My father also believed, when he was younger, that God would not allow man the power to go to the moon. But he turned out to be wrong and had the humility to admit he was wrong.
When the Great Tribulation begins I wonder how many pre-trib rapturists will admit their error or how many will become part of the apostasy and time of betrayal during which “Christians” will betray one another to the antichrist and his minions.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 NKJV
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Timothy 3:1 NKJV
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come.
Matthew 24:9-15 NKJV
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Therefore when you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)...
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Who does Christ identify as the ones persecuted? And why?
They are persecuted for His name. That means they are Christians. (Not making the point that they are church-age believers necessarily from this passage alone. That is a separate issue.) That is, they identify as followers of Christ. Are they? Certainly, some are. Yet others fall away. Others betray one another (i.e. other “Christians”). And many of these nominal Christians even hate each other. And these things will, apparently, happen during the first half of Daniel’s 70th week, before the Great Tribulation begins in the middle of this “week”, at the abomination of desolation, when the antichrist is revealed.
It is important that the Gospel not give the hearers the wrong idea that repentance and faith in Christ will result in escaping trials, tribulations, temptations, persecutions, adversities, and hardships. These things are promised to come, but faith in Christ not only means relying on Him for forgiveness, and help in overcoming sin, but also the power to endure despite the many challenges that will inevitably come to the believer. The way out is the way through, so to speak.
Acts 14:21-22 NKJV
And when they [the apostles Barnabas and Paul] had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
Look up - He is coming soon!
Maranatha!!
“the Great Tribulation, which is God’s dealing with Israel and the world inn judgment”
God’s “dealings” with Israel and the Church are not mutually exclusive.
* At Pentecost, ALL of the members of the Church were also Israelites.
* The early church apostles and prophets continued to embrace their simultaneous status as citizens of Israel.
* The Jewish believers of the early church, including the apostles who were led by the Holy Spirit and carried full authority over the Church, continued to participate in temple sacrifices and cleansings while the temple remained.
* This continued for more than three decades until the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. And this proves there can be and indeed is an overlap between God’s dealings with Israel and the Church.
If God did this during the beginning of the Church age, He can do this as well during the final years of Daniel’s prophecy. Daniel’s prophecy is about God completing His work in Israel:
Daniel 9:24 NKJV
Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
When will this occur?
More specifically, when will “all Israel be saved”?
Romans 11:26-27 NKJV
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
Currently, there is a partial blindness causing Israel to reject Christ nationally. But Israel will be brought to repentance. Part of God’s plan for the Church is to bring about this national repentance by provoking Israel to jealousy.
Romans 11:11 NKJV
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
See Deuteronomy 32.
But again, WHEN exactly will Israel’s blindness be removed so that she repents nationally? Zechariah tells us...
Zechariah 12:10 NKJV
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Jesus was pierced on the cross. This passage is specifically quoted in that context in the gospels. But Israel, as a nation, did not repent at that time. As a nation, Israel remains blinded and unrepentant to this day. As a nation, they have not yet recognized that Jesus is the Lord Jehovah of the Hebrew scriptures. But this will happen when Jesus returns.
I suggest that this best matches His appearing AFTER the Great Tribulation AT the coming of the Day of the Lord. All of the tribes of the earth will mourn. But Israel’s mourning will be the godly sorrow of repentance. The Church will and must remain to serve her purpose of bringing about Israel’s national repentance.
See Revelation 6:12-17 and 1:7.
——>Scripture clearly lays out the case for The Pre-Tribulation Rapture. It’s not some phony doctrine that Darby made up either since Jesus, Peter, John, and Paul all wrote about it long before.
Francisco Ribera (Jesuit)
Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (Jesuit)
Michael Walpole (Jesuit)
Manuel De Lacunza (Jesuit)
Edward Irving
Margaret McDonald (ecstatic utterances)
Samuel Roffey Maitland
James H. Todd
John Henry Newman
John Nelson Darby
Cyrus Ingerson Scofield
etc...
Not in scripture. It started as FUTURISM by the Jesuits, as part of the counter reformation. Manual De Lacunza, the last in the Jesuit line, wrote a book on it, which Edward Irving discovered in a library, translated into English, and preached about it in his Church, where MARGARET McDONALD attended. John Darby made multiple trips to Edward’s church, tweaked his own version, then made at least 6 trips to America, preaching to everyone who would listen. Scofield picked up on it, put it in his bible, and now it’s considered gospel. It is a FABRICATION by the Papacy, pure and simple. Literally every Protestant Reformer, and minister, even up to and beyond Henry Grattan Guinness, preached that the Papacy was the Antichrist power, because it is, clearly outlined in scripture. John Knox’s first sermon in Scottland, after reading Daniel 7 for the first time and studying it, was on the Papacy as the Antichrist. John Gill CLEARLY makes the case for the Papacy as the Antichrist Power. None of them had heard anything about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture nonsense. the “CHURCH” is a CONTINUATION of literal Israel (now Spiritual Israel). The first born, the nation of Israel, was stripped of it’s birthright after it denied the Messiah and failed to produce fruit. Christ makes that very clear. Dispensationalism is a lie. It’s all a lie, concocted by the Jesuits, to counter the Reformers calling them the Antichrist power. (the Papacy also came up with Preterism, covering all bases to those calling them out as the Antichrist/Little Horn power)
From Biblical Scholar, Samuel Prideaux Tregelles. March 17, 1864.
“I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a SECRET RAPTURE of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an utterance in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether anyone ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin.
The Hope of Christ’s Second Coming: How is it Taught in Scripture? And Why? Samuel Prideaux Tregelles. March 17, 1864.
****Tregelles was an EYEWITNESS to the event, when Margaret MacDonald made those utterances, and first time EVER hearing about the PTR theory****
§ VIII. (p.23.)
“But there is a very different theory of the coming of the Lord as the hope of His Church, which many teach, and which many more receive, as though it were unquestioned truth.”
“It is said that there shall be a SECRET coming of the Lord Jesus Christ; that at this SECRET coming His believing people who are in their graves shall be raised, and the living changed, and that a secret rapture of the Church shall then take place; that this SECRET coming and SECRET rapture are our hope, and not the manifested appearing of Christ in the clouds of heaven.”
“It is said that after this SECRET removal of the Church, the full manifestation of human evil, for some years at least, will take place, during which time shall be the display of the power of Antichrist,—the persecutions foretold in the Revelation, the extreme trials of Israel, the unequaled tribulation,—and that the end of this will be the manifestation of Christ visibly coming with His Church in the cloud of glory.”
“This is the doctrine of the SECRET coming of Christ, which many now preach as if it were the acknowledged truth of God, instead of its being (as is really the case) that which at every point would require proof from Scripture.”
“But not only is this doctrine of the coming of Christ not taught in the Word of God, but if, in what has been previously said, there is any point of truth, then this whole system stands in distinct contradiction of what the Scripture reveals.”
Agreed. He is coming soon. I believe in the lifetime of many alive today.
I’m old enough to know that years can go by in the blink of an eye. As believers, we are told to watch and pray (that we may escape/not enter into temptation).
Like you, I’m watching for Christ’s coming by watching for the signs of His coming. While I’m not convinced that we are seeing the final signs yet, they certainly seem to be the precursors required for the actual signs to happen.
I’ll join you looking up metaphorically speaking.
I’m looking forward to His appearing more and more every day!
Regardless of what the naysayers say - He will Return soon.
To those like me and other dear Brethren looking to His appearing, we will receive our Crowns of Righteousness. 2 Timothy 4:8
Can’t wait for mine! 👍
Soon and very soon we are going to see the King!!! And we will meet Him in the air.
When He returns with us (The Saints of God) He will be returning, not to be spat upon and Crucified, but to Rule and Reign.
The Kimg of kings and Lord of lords.
I always enjoy your posts Brother. They encourage me to hold fast.
Matthew 24 sounds like what happen in China’s cultural revolution where people betrayed one another in order to save their own skin from the communist regime. Not a stretch to think that our future could be one of communist rule, something like what China has now with total surveillance and neighbors spying on each other.
I just ordered Tregelles book, thank you for including his quotes.
It’s also available online for free. It took me a little searching but I found his complete list (some aren’t available for download, however). I’ll look for it and send you a link.
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