Posted on 11/11/2023 2:10:52 PM PST by MurphsLaw
Catholic apologist Trent Horn offers a lingering theological question
concerning the much discussed doctrine of Sola Fide here.
To note, there are varying, different definitions of this doctrine,
and many non-Catholic Christians do not hold to this doctrine in some way or another as well.
(In a similar way that Catholics erroneously pick and choose what they desire to believe or reject.)
The question asked of this vague and ambiguous doctrine is this:
If good works are necessary fruit, evidence,
of one who has been saved by Faith Alone,
"What exactly are the "good works" that accompany true faith?"
A natural follow up to this question, asked further into this 18 min.video clip,
Would be "How much then, of these good works must be accomplished
to show one has "true faith" and not a false faith?"
And finally - do these questions even need to have answers
that better define one's being saved or not?
18 min. YouTube clip below.
My Big Question for "Sola Fide" Defenders
Please also try to avoid the irrestible "PPM"-
Pope, purgatory and Mary issues as the focus for this post is quite specific
on the understanding of "Sola Fide" and the practicality of how it works in one faith life.
Delay of game penalty flags will be thrown.
I doubt that’s going to happen.
I’m surprised the unhinged rants haven’t begun yet.
Moses murdered.
Daniel committed adultery and murder.
The disciples abandoned Christ before the arrest and crucifixion.
Yet, all of these were noted to be saved by faith.
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB 95
We have evidence in the NT of what these good works would be. Taking care of widows and orphans, helping our fellow man (James), doing unto others, giving a cup of water, etc.
All of these might not be done by an individual but that individual will be producing fruit, or the good works.
However, you can give a bazillion gallons of water and without faith in Christ no salvation.
If you have faith in Christ you will give a cup of water, maybe more depending on how He leads you. But it's the faith in Christ, and only Christ, that saves the person. The thief on the cross is a great example of this. No chance for any good works, bible study, Lord's supper, etc....yet, he gained Paradise through his faith.
The problem I see is people may do some of these "good works" and think "I'm good for Heaven because I did insert good deed here." But recall Paul considered anything he did to be like filthy rags....totally unworthy in terms of justification or sanctification. And that's how we should view what we do....it's totally unworthy compared to the shed blood of Christ.
*****
You wanted to avoid the PPM arguments but in this discussion one cannot as they are at the core of this discussion.
Recall Unam Sanctam requires obedience to the pope for salvation though it isn't required in the New Testament.
The non-biblical purgatory requires a person to "get cleaned up" which nullifies the ability of Christ to fully forgive a person of their sins. Then there are the Marian dogmas a Roman Catholic has to believe to be "saved" though they are not supported by the Old or New Testament.
So, it's not possible to avoid the PPM as they contradict the scriptural position of faith in Christ, and only Christ.
The “faith vs works” conundrum need not exist. It is a construct.
Here’s how to resolve it. Faith has 3 crucial and integral elements:
1) believe — accept and confess the Gospel as the truth.
2) trust — know deep inside that you can commit your life to God and He will shepherd you all your life.
3) obey (let God work through you) — get with the program you believe and trust. The Holy Spirit promises to help those who truly engage.
If any of those 3 elements are missing, it isn’t faith. It’s a foul ball, an incomplete pass, wide right or wide left. In other words, if any of the three elements are missing, maybe SOMETHING took place; but it wasn’t faith.
I am convinced, though, that if one becomes IMPRESSED with the God of the Bible and His Gospel, then becomes DESPERATE for same, his/her faith will become a completed circuit.
I reject the premise of that question. The “fruit” or “evidence” isn’t to prove to God that one has faith— it’s to make a good presentation of faith to others (I.e. helping someone in need as detailed in James 2).
Good one.
None. The thief on the cross comes to mind. He simply asked Jesus to remember him. We know Jesus' answer. The thief had no time to produce "good works".
If it is "faith only", then there is no "must" and no "show". You ask the question from a works mindset.
Correction. Should be David. Not Daniel.
We knew. And we knew you knew.
+1.
The question though in the video is directed to those believers
whose ideal of Sola Fide DOES require good works to accompany faith.
If that's not your position-
then of course the question is n/a for you.
The video does however show clips of prominent Christian Pastors,
who believe in sola fide- and yet teach that good works are the fruit ans evidence of a "true faith".
It is to this group of Christians the question is then asked,
what are these good works necessary to do?-
and how much does one need to do?
My name is Dan, but the certificate my coach gave me in high school for lettering read “David”. He had faith in me, even though his works fell short.
Evidence to whom, or Whom? God knows us far better than we know ourselves. When He regenerates a new believer, He never does incompletely. Rather,
"he who began a good work in you
will carry it on to completion
until the day of Christ Jesus."
There are questions that need answers to clarify this Faith life we know exists.
Without concrete answers how do we know we are the people who will go before the Lord...
Being one of those who say "Lord, Lord"?
But again- the focus is specific to the Christian Pastors
in the video who preach good works are necessary to companion with Sola Fide.
This is where the question for definition is being asked...
As noted in the video...
Mr. Horn mentions the varying degrees of Sola Fide understanding
And it's not a one size fits all type of question.
God knows what is in a person’s heart. The “evidence” is for the people around us. God is not an idiot, but some theologians are.
Are you unsure of your salvation? Do you have saving faith, or not? Faith is belief. In Jesus’ finished work, not in yourself.
We don’t judge works as “proof” of salvation.
The churches are filled with the unsaved and the saved, and theres no magical marker on either. Can people who do “good works” be pulling the wool over others eyes when they really don’t believe? Sure.
When someone confesses Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, that’s the key thing to look for. Could someone lie? Sure. But with all lies, its eventually uncovered. But we are also not inquisitors, or detectives to our fellow Christians either. We generally take people at their word unless their other words or actions would make us think or question otherwise.
If anyone thinks they should be spending time questioning and testing others faith as something they should be doing a lot of, and putting themselves in that position, I think Jesus would probably do what He often did to people like this, and say, maybe worry about your own faith first, instead of everyone else’s.
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