Posted on 06/12/2023 3:00:20 AM PDT by Cronos
>>> does the church in Thessalonica still exist??? was paul referencing an old testament book that the church would know as most were converted jews
The interesting thing about these 2 letters has more to do with the doctrine of imminence than anything else.
I’m not sure I’m following your point on that church’s existence or the book you are referring to.
>>> you also keep only quoiting one verse at a time...
What do you want here?... tons of scripture proofs nobody is going to examine?
I’m more interested in what the intended meaning of each scripture is. I am not above error. I have already learned something here today... I never realized before that the post tribulation gathering does not specify the transformation or resurrection. Now I would like to find out where that actually DOES take place in scripture.
Maybe you can help... what is your point?
Yes, really!!! Here's ONE off the top of my head:
Joel 2:30-32:
And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes. And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.
Anyway, it sounds like you're starting to get a little worked up so this is a good place to end our conversation. Nice chatting with you and have a blessed day.
“great and Terrible day” is not positive.
Worked up??? really??? give me a break.
But the part about the faithful living at that same time who persevere (which you somehow missed even though I underlined it), is positive:
And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be delivered; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.
Worked up??? really??? give me a break.
Yup. Sounds like you still are. Give yourself a break. Read some Scripture, say your prayers, and go to bed. Have a blessed and peaceful evening.
You wrote Then What was Paul referring to when he told the Thessalonians “Therefore comfort one another with these words”? that was 1 Thess 4:17-18
1 Thess 4:13-18 or rather the whole 1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.And very clearly in verse 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto sanctification.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
What does this actually teach?
Paul wrote to the Thessalnian Christians because they were worried about those who died before Christ's return. Many in the ancient world believed that a person simply ceased to exist upon death.
These was a rumor in Thessalonica at the time Paul wrote the letter that the dead Christians had lost out on any chance of a physical resurrection. St.Paul assures them that it was not so. In fact, "the dead in Christ will rise first" to meet Christ
Pre-trib rapture upholders make the mistake of thinking "meet the Lord in the air" is about Christ not actually touching the earth.
The word St. Paul uses for meeting the Lord "in the air" is aer the Greek word for atmosphere
This SAME word is used in Ephesians 2:2
And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [c]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.yet no one would claim that, because of this word, Satan wouldn't influence people on the earth
A consistent pre-trib rapture reading of this wod here would mean that only airplane passengers are influenced by Satan's power
NO, when Christ returns to the earth's atmosphere, He has returned to earth
Rapturists trying to point to the "coming in the clouds" -- but this ignores the symbol of divinity in the clouds
The Bible uses three Greek words interchangeably
Rapturists think that there is a different usage for each, but that is false - parousia is not used just for some "rapture" and the others for the 2nd coming
Paul doesn't mention this 19th century rapture idea as occuring before the appearance of the antichrist and before the second coming is simple: it never entered into his mind that anyone would believe Christ would rapture His Church before the final Eschaton
In the apocalypse, that is referred to as the battle with Gog and Magog, Christians will participate in that confrontation because there will be no secret rapture before it. Our comfort rests in Him who will emerge from that confrontation as the Victor.
THAT is the reassurance Paul offers, not the promise of an escape from the great Tribulation.
>>> This SAME word is used in Ephesians 2:2
It’s the same word, but completely different context and meaning...
“of the air” speaks of dominion... like “Lord of the Rings” or “Prince of the Earth”
“IN the air” speaks of a general area for a specified event... namely OFF of the face or surface of the earth...
In the second coming, scripture clearly depicts Jesus descending from the clouds for all eyes to see to the very place He ascended from (the temple mount)... and Yet Jesus describes His “Coming” or beginning of the day of the Lord as a “Thief in the night”. Those 2 things are clearly NOT the same event. Paul’s words of comfort to the Thessalonians do NOT mention ANY of those details related to the second coming.
His Coming as a thief (NOT SEEN on earth) is what BEGINS tribulation, and then His Coming on the clouds (visible to all) is when He ENDS the tribulation.
>>> Rapturists trying to point to the “coming in the clouds” — but this ignores the symbol of divinity in the clouds
No they don’t... that’s not even an accurate quote of scripture... it’s coming “ON” the clouds... BIG DIFFERENCE.
“In the air” is NOT On or In the clouds!... I have not heard believers in the rapture make that mistake... Your claim that they(we) do is the first I’ve heard of that.
Besides... we wouldn’t be able to see much in the clouds anyway! “in the air could even be referring to outer space” (where there’s plenty of room)
Please do not tell me what rapturists believe so you can then destroy your strawman argument.
>>> Paul doesn’t mention this 19th century rapture idea as occuring before the appearance of the antichrist and before the second coming is simple: it never entered into his mind that anyone would believe Christ would rapture His Church before the final Eschaton
Umm... yes... he does.
1Co 15:51 “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,”
Here, Paul says WE are not all going to die. When Paul said “WE”, he was including himself... revealing he believed the rapture would happen in his lifetime... just as Jesus warned them to be ready and waiting.
In the apocalypse that is the battle of Gog and Magog??? REally??? Is that a 7 year battle? or what???
How are Christians going to participate in a battle that even the Jews are unable to fight???
Israel will be without gates or walls, and the Gog (ruler) of Magog (Russia) tries to invade from the north for plunder. It is GOD at that point that intervenes, and completely annihilates the invading armies with all sorts of supernatural strikes... showing the nations that HE is God.
NO... I think you were trying to refer to the battle of Armageddon... but even then, the christians who will be with Jesus are already in their glorified bodies and wont have much to do anyway because Jesus destroys them all instantly with a word from His mouth.
OUR comfort is not the subject matter... it was the Thessalonians Paul was talking to. He was comforting THEM.
Were they really worried about fighting the battle of Gog and Magog??? Or were they worried about their loved ones who had died. No... You had it right the first time when addressing the Thessalonian’s concerns... and I’m not seeing any references to tribulation battles in 1st Thessalonians.
>>> THAT is the reassurance Paul offers, not the promise of an escape from the great Tribulation.
“THAT” being victory in battle???
Keep in mind one final thought about the tribulation...
Those days will be shortened lest all flesh be destroyed.
It’s going to be a literal BLOODBATH! VERY FEW will survive it!
I don’t see how anyone can gain comfort from knowing they have to go through that.
I mean for crying out loud... consider soldiers on the battlefield even now... in Russia or Ukraine... or anywhere for that matter who are starving and getting their guts blown apart... Are they comforted by their thoughts of victory??? or by thoughts of escape from their living hell?
sorry you missed my point, when you quote a verse but not the preceding one or the proceeding one you loose meaning is when i am trying to say, each verse flows into the next. asking of you knew if the thessalonica church still existed was rhetorical.
Very similar to the Cult of Global warming and Evolution!
>>> when you quote a verse but not the preceding one or the proceeding one you loose meaning
If you think I took something out of context, and as a result lost meaning, then you should point out specifically what you think was lost instead of just implying that it was done intentionally to avoid the truth you found relevant.
If you are going to take shots at someone’s analysis, please do so by making your own counterpoints.
The hope is of eternal reward.
Jesus told us that we need to be prepared to suffer for His sake. Not a magic escape
In 2 Thessalonians, Paul is writing shortly before the Jewish-Roman War begins in 67 AD
[1] And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: [2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, [4] Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. [5] Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?The REVOLT - the Jewish revolt in 67 AD. The Man of Sin - Nero. And then Nero's statue in the temple.
[6] And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him, [9] Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, [10] And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
Rapturists make the false claim that Christians had been secretly raptured 3.5 years before the Temple worship was corrupted
But this is deceptive and FALSE. Paul wrote Thessalonians to encourage a group of Christians who were afraid they had been "left behind" yet he explicitly does NOT speak of the "blessed hope of the rapture" to comfort the worried Thessalonians. NOWHERE in this passage is there even a message of the rapture. In this passage the rapture is missing in action.
The reason Paul does not mention the rapture as occuring before the appearance of the antichrist and before the second coming is simple: it never entered into his mind that anyone would believe Christ would rapture His Church before the final eschaton
Do a search on “Escape” and “Wrath” together.
I don’t know what to tell you...
God’s Word is very clear that there are those who
1. Will not die, but be transformed (1 Cor 15:50)
and
2. “Escape from the wrath to come”
But...
He is not going to force you.
Enjoy the tribulation.
>>> Rapturists make the false claim that Christians had been secretly raptured 3.5 years before the Temple worship was corrupted
Jesus Himself taught on pre-tribulation rapture.
This pastor does a much better job presenting the evidence of that in this video than I could ever hope to with further responses to your hardened position.
If you or others wish to consider it, here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFRQkcCc-XA&t=2069s
The opening verses of the Olivet discourse set the scene for this - they left the temple and His disciples ask him about the temple
Jesus answer Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down - this was done by the Roman legions under Titus and is the final fulfilment of Micha 3:12
The Olivet discourse then talks about the 8 signs that Jesus said would lead to the Temple's destruction that were important for the Apostles to recognizeTherefore, because of you,
Zion shall be plowed like a field,
and Jerusalem reduced to rubble,
And the mount of the temple
to a forest ridge.
Jesus then mentions in 24:21 the Great Tribulation - which is for the Jesus-movement Jews.
There has never been, nor will there ever be anything rivaling it. The Church was close to being smothered in its cradle if Nero continued and the Jerusalem Christians had not escaped to Pella - this was a tiny community, primarily Jewish and was attacked by both the Roman authorities AND the Jewish authorities. That WAS the great tribulation
THEN, in Matt 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved - This is apocalyptic language exactly referring to Isaiah 13:10-13 The stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light... I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place" - Jesus is foretelling the overthrow of nero and the Sanhedrin. He draws a parallel between the shaking of Babylon and the shaking of Jerusalem (and that's the basis of John's vision in the book of revelations)
This is also reflected in Haggai 2:6-7 Thus says that Lord of hosts: Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land; and I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come in, and I will fill this house with splendor, says the Lord of hosts
This splendor is Christ and the house is the Church. The Sanhedrin was uprooted forever, never to be validly re-established again.
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I'm finally answering your question, apologies for the background lenght
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Now to Matt 24:30-31 Then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds on heaven with power and great glory; and He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other -- and on reading this with Daniel we have
3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star 20 resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, 21 [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner 22 [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, 23 began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus [for he was then our procurator] asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.
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Mara Bar Searpion, a pagan Syrian Gentile who wrote a letter to hsi son around 73 AD wrote "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged"
Only God could make the type of prediction that Jesus made and have it come true. Consider how while Jerusalem was still standing,Jesus foretold what would befall it from the hand of hte empire. At that time there were no armies around Jerusalem encompassing and besieging it for the siege began three decades after His death
Finally the fig tree - "you know that He is near, at the very gates." - the generation of the fig tree was the people who lived to see the destruction in 70 AD
That is why the Gospel according to john does not include the Olivet discourse because revelations was written before 67 AD but the gospel according to john was written after 70 AD
He quotes Rev 3:10 7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. This was written to the believers in Philadelphia in 64 AD
It was talking about the upcoming tribulations that the Jesus-movement Jews faced from 64 AD to 67 AD
your pastor completely ignores 3:9 behold I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie - behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you. -- are you saying that would happen today?
No, that is what happened in the 1st century when the Jesus-movement Jews were another competing sect of 2nd temple Judaism
>>> The Olivet discourse then talks about the 8 signs that Jesus said would lead to the Temple’s destruction that were important for the Apostles to recognize
NO... you conveniently LEFT OUT the QUESTIONS the disciples asked Jesus when He prophesied the destruction of the temple.
I’m working today, so will take a while for me to get back and look at more... keep the scripture bombs to a minimum please... I can look things up for myself. I’m more interested in your ability to make sense of key scriptures and use exegetical analysis. I’m a one thing at a time kind of guy.
Thanks for watching the video though. I really didn’t think you would... so you surprised me.
I’m noticing a disconnect on your part between past biblical events and prophecy. Everything is always referring to something that already happened.
Are you not aware that biblical events are prophetic themselves???
When Jesus was speaking to the 7 churches, YES... those were real churches, and real events surrounding His words to them... but they were also prophetic and directed to all believers through the end of days. Read again what you just quoted back to me from the video... Jesus refers to saving them (meaning us) from the wrath against “THE WHOLE EARTH”... NOT just Jerusalem or Israel... so He WAS Speaking about the tribulation.
Let's look at the questions the disciples asked JEsus then
The first question asked by the discples:
Matt 24:1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildingsThen we go on to Matthew 24:3 “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Answered in the next verse Matt 24:2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”Between 70 and 73 AD the Temple complex was destroyed by Titus' army. in 70 AD when they conquered the temple mount, the legions set fire to the Temple, resulting in the gold melting down between the huge stones. So they were ordered to dismantle EVERY stone by stone.
by the time they finished "not one stone here was left on another, every one was thrown down", there was nothing left but a field that was then plowed with salt
And Jesus answers - there will be 8 signs
Impsoters and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were preveailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly-- St. Jerome in the 4th century also wrote about these At teh time of the Jewish captivitiy, there were many leaders who declared tehmselves to be Christs, so that while the Romans were actually beseigning them, there were three factions withinbr
In July 64 AD after Rome burned to the ground, Nero singled out the Christians as the scapegoat. Now the Roman secular authorities persecuted Christians alongside the persecutions of Christians by the Sanhedrain and the persecution of Christians by the Pharisees
and we have the writings of Clement of Rome in 70 AD that Peter and Paul had been martyred, but not before they taught righteousness to the WHOLE WORLD, and they came tothe extreme limit of the west
And Justin martyr,writing in around 110 AD wrote that from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed TO EVERY RACE OF MEN that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God
-The olivet Discourse used the word oikoumene which specifically means the civilized world ie to the writers it meant the Roman empire.
Watching the youtube from the beginning again. Here are some points to ponder:
1. He starts talking about Apostolic succession and then completely disregards what the Apostles taught and passed down. that is wrong on his part
2. he then blames Augustine for “changing the doctrine of the Rapture that Jesus taught” - but completely ignores
2.1. the Ancient Church of the east - the Assyrian Church, broke away from other Christians (it had to as it was under the Persian Sassanid empire which did not want a Christian church connected with Rome/Constantinople). and they do NOT have and have never had any pre-tribulation rapture teaching.
2.2. He over-inflates Augustine’s position — rather, your pastor seems to only know Western Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox Church never held Augustine at the same level as the Western Church (Catholicism and then various flavors of Protestantism)
2.3 He accuses Augustine of inventing supersessionism i.e. “the church has replaced Israel as the center of God’s focus” — but this is historically false:
2.3.1. As we read in Galatians, it was already in Apostolic times that they saw the “church” i.e. the community of Jesus-believing Christians as being the new Israel
2.3.2. Justin Martyr, writing in the 1st century wrote that the true spiritual Israel referred to those who had been led to God through this crucified Christ
2.3.3. your pastor has mis-stated the position - it is not “replacing” Israel - rather the Church i.e. the community of Jesus-movement believers have held that they are the continuation of and expansion of Israel.
3. he then talks about Byzantine architecture affected by augustinian teaching - which is ludicrous considering that he is hardly read in the eastern Church and his influence is more in the west and was more in the west.
Furthermore, the architecture of Byzantine cathedrals - he seems to think of only Hagia Sophia when he thinks of Byzantine Churches. Most churches were smaller and cosier.
4. First and second Thessalonians don’t talk about the rapture at all:
4.1. Thess 4:13-5:3 is clearly talking to the people who worried that dead Christians had lost out on the chance of a physical resurrection. St Paul assures them that it was not so. In fact , “the dead in Christ will rise first”...
4.2. 2 Thess 2:1-10 - Paul writes about the church being around to witness the man of lawlessness revealed. It does teach that Christians will still be on earth when the battle with the final antichrist rages
Sorry, will catch up on these later. stopped at th 15 min mark
“In my Father’s house is many mansions... and If I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself...”
You are so indoctrinated and enamored with the writings of men that you cannot simply listen to what God Himself is saying to you in His Word.
I did not share the video to talk about Augustine.
I see no evidence that you are willing to even consider the possibility that your doctrine is the one in error.
That is a dangerous position to be in.
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