Posted on 06/12/2023 3:00:20 AM PDT by Cronos
that’s where we differ completely as none of what you said makes any sense at all. There’s entirely too much twisting of Scripture to try to support believers not having to be present at the end of days. Have faith in God to carry you through.
In context, Peter here is not talking about a rapture that will snatch believers from the earth before some tribulation and earthly millennial reign of Christ, but about the Second Coming. The scoffers of his time were trying to discount the fact that Christ would come at all and so feel free to continue their depraved lives. When Christ comes for his Church, he will only come once, at which time the dead will rise, those believers still on earth taken up, and then immediately the judgement and eternity.
>>> In context, Peter here is not talking about a rapture that will snatch believers from the earth before some tribulation and earthly millennial reign of Christ, but about the Second Coming.
in CONTEXT, he is referring to a 1000 year period... you have to keep reading to see what he is referring to.
2Pe 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Peter here is making the point that God's timing is not man's timing. What seems like a long time for us is almost nothing to him. There is no indication that he is tying this proverbial saying to a 1000 year earthly millennial reign.
I should add that Peter is quoting Psalm 90, specifically verse 4: "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night." The whole Psalm is about the eternalness of God compared to the frailty and passing nature of man. If Peter was applying this to a future millennial reign, he would be guilty of severe out of context proof-texting.
>>> Peter here is making the point that God’s timing is not man’s timing. What seems like a long time for us is almost nothing to him. There is no indication that he is tying this proverbial saying to a 1000 year earthly millennial reign.
I just did a search on “day of the lord”
I found this interesting and to my point...
Eze 30:3
For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Notice this refers to a time period prophetically as the “time of the heathen”. That does not sound like a particular 24 hour period to me.
Now... I would challenge you to do the same search, and as you review all of the references to this day, ask yourself this question....
Is it a day you described biblically as GLORIOUS? HAPPY? PEACEFUL? Victorious?
OR... is it a day described as TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE, DREADFUL, etc.
So tell me... if the “day of the Lord” is a reference to the day that Jesus returns, then why is that particular day so Horrible???
Why would that particular day be so much worse for mankind on earth than the preceeding 7 years that are described in the book of Revelation???
Seems to me that if the day of the lord is “THE day” that Jesus returns to earth, it would be a GLORIOUS.. VICTORIOUS... MAGNIFICENT day... would it not???
Do you see my confusion if what you say about “no indication” is correct???
>>> If Peter was applying this to a future millennial reign, he would be guilty of severe out of context proof-texting.
About a week or so ago, I watched this really interesting video on how even the 7 days of creation are prophetic in nature, with each day and each creation had prophetic implications which laid out God’s entire plan for 7000 years.
This passage we are discussing from Peter was a central argument in this video... namely the first part where he discusses the creation prophecy. While I may or may not agree with everything said in this video, I find this extremely relevant to the discussion here.
He brings up Peter’s comment at time marker 12:48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AG_nJNcTjM
why would Jesus need to gather the elect at the end of times if we’re already with Him? There’s too much contorting of things to fit the narrative that we don’t have to live through difficult times but that is NOT Scriptural.
“Jesus also refers to some of this, also quoting the prophet Isaiah, stating, “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” (Matthew 24:29-31).”
>>> why would Jesus need to gather the elect at the end of times if we’re already with Him? There’s too much contorting of things to fit the narrative that we don’t have to live through difficult times but that is NOT Scriptural.
“gather” is a reference to translation or conversion to an eternal incorruptible state.
Yes... we will already be with Him in our incorruptible bodies. When Jesus comes on clouds of Glory so that all can see Him, it says WE are Riding With Him! The elect you refer to will have not received their resurrected bodies yet... until this particular “gathering”.
Note the two DIFFERENT rapture accounts as evidenced by the Gathering LOCATION.
In the pre-tribulation rapture, we meet Jesus in the clouds.
In the post-tribulation rapture, tribulation saints are “gathered Unto Him”... where is HE?.... standing on the temple mount... on the earth.
you made that up. To gather is to gather together, not translate or convert. show me in the greek where you see that or what you’re basing that on. you need to ask God if you’re being honest with yourself and others or if you’re trying to manipulate yourself and others into believing we skate when times get tough.
Do you have an example of this happening???
The example is found in China. In the 1940's, Chinese Christians expected the rapture and instead got the Communists. They weren't prepared for persecution, and many fell away. I fear the same will happen in the USA, where the idea of being persecuted before the rapture is not even considered.
>>> you made that up. To gather is to gather together, not translate or convert. show me in the greek where you see that or what you’re basing that on.
I did NOT say that the word Gather was the word Rapture. I said that it was a reference to when a physical transformation would take place.
We are now talking about what Paul discusses in 1st Cor. 15:50... where our physical bodies are either resurrected or transformed into in-corruption. The argument was over whether or not there will be a pre-tribulation conversion/resurrection/translation or not, so this is now BESIDES that point and argument.
If that word “gather” is not a reference to when a post-tribulation “CONVERSION” takes place, then please tell me when you think it does.
I’m all ears.
When will post tribulation believers/survivors be resurrected/endowed with immortal bodies?
First question:
At the fifth seal, the souls under the alter cry out,
"When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Rev 6:9-10
If the Great Tribulation began at the First Seal, why would the souls at the Fifth Seal ask, “How long until you judge?” The impression is that the first four seals occur over a long period of time, and that the souls don’t see them as the wrath of God. If the Tribulation Period began at First Seal, they would known the answer. Since they didn’t know the answer, they asked, “How long”. God answered, saying,
“. . . it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Rev 6:11
Notice they are not told, “You are in luck, it’s already begun.” Instead, they are told, “not yet”, and that it won’t happen until the full number of Christians are put to death. In other words, the judgment hasn’t started. The persecution presented here, is still occurring. The 20th Century has seen millions of Christians killed.
Second question:
At the Sixth Seal, a great earthquake occurs. This passage gives mankind’s response:
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Rev 6:12-17
Again, if the Great Tribulation and the wrath of God had begun at the First Seal, why didn’t the world recognize it. You don't see people at the First Seal crying out about God's judgment. It’s not until the Sixth Seal that they recognize God’s judgment has begun.
As these passages show, neither believers in heaven, or unbelievers on earth, see the Great Tribulation as having already begun. It’s not until the great earthquake of the Sixth Seal hits, that people first realize what is happening.
seriously though, where are you getting the ‘physical transformation’ from the word GATHER?
Gather is gather. It dose all happen ‘post tribulation’ and we are given incorruptible bodies at that time but that happens after He gathers us
Ok, I guess I’ll add my 2 cents.
I think II These. 2:1 - 6, makes clear that the ‘gathering together’, that is the rapture of the saints with Christ, on the Day of the Lord needs a few things to precede it. 1st the rebellion or some translations say falling away or apostasy, then the man of sin is revealed with all false signs and lying wonders. Rev. 13:18, states let those who have wisdom count the number of the name of beast. Paul seems to indicate that believers will know who this guy is while the rest of the world thinks he’s Mr. Wonderful.
Who has wisdom to count the number of his name during this time? The lost of the world, unbelieving Israel who will be deceived by this guy or believers who have not been martyred yet but are still looking for the coming of their Lord?
The Tribulation, in some sense, isn’t 7 years and this isn’t God’s wrath on the nations - that’s coming but not yet. I think it’s in Isaiah where it states that the Lord ALONE will be exalted in that day (Day of the Lord). The first 3.5 yrs are called the Beginning of Sorrows. The second half is called the Great Tribulation but… it is cut short (so not the full 3.5 yrs) Matt 24:21 - 22. When it is cut short is when I believe the rapture takes place. It is also at that time that Jerusalem is under siege and only Christ’s return would save her. I believe that these events start the Day of the Lord’s wrath. Before that it is Satan’s wrath as he seeks the worship of the entire world and persecutes believers.
Jesus told us that in this world we would have tribulation. We all know that Christians are being killed every day around the world for their stand for ChrIst. That hasn’t been the case (at least in large measure) in America. It just seems to me that some American Christians think they are ‘special’ and won’t have to suffer like believers the world over and centuries over have had to. Remember the passages that say the antichrist will make war with the saints and overcome them. Do you think that just means he’ll close their church. I don’t think so. The pretribulation position claims that after they are gone a big revival will take place and there will be Christians saved after Christ gathers his bride. That, to me, is naive at best. The work of the Holy Spirit to restrain evil in the world will be decreasing and ending, the Church Age or the Age of Grace, is ending and God’s focus is turning back to Israel. The Holy Spirit won’t be taken out of the world but he will only be residing in remaining believers. The remnant church will be in hiding warned not to come out if people are saying ‘he’s in the inner room’ or ‘he’s in the wilderness’, etc., otherwise they would be killed. So if ANY come to faith during this time it will be an extremely small number. The Jews don’t recognize their Messiah until he comes to intervene to save Jerusalem and the 144 thousand from every tribe are sealed after the mourn him. So they won’t be evangelizing. I know this is a confusing subject with many views. I think as we get closer to this time things will clear up and more will become apparent. John Haller always says that that 30 minute silence in heaven is for all the prophecy teachers to have time to be able to update their charts.
The effects of the Day of the Lord is described variously, depending on whether you are with God or against him. In the Old Testament prophets, it usually meant wrath against God's enemies and people, but it sometimes meant a day of wrath against God's people when they were unfaithful. It also was sometimes a vindication for God and his chosen ones.
I think one obstacle to understanding "the Day of the Lord" is to hold the premise that, especially when New Testament writers speak of it, it refers to a pre-Second Coming rapture/earthly millennium scenario. As we saw with the text from Peter citing Psalm 90, that is a false premise. As we saw, he is not talking about a Rapture event, but about the Second Coming at the end of the world. Each passage has to be considered in it's own original context.
Dittos
>>> seriously though, where are you getting the ‘physical transformation’ from the word GATHER?
It is presumed that tribulation saints who endure to the end will be transformed as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15:50 when Jesus returns. The gathering takes place at the same time.
The point that “gather” is not the same word as “harpotzo” is a valid one....
However, the assumption these 2 things happen simultaneously (gather + harpotzo) is a valid one.
But... Like I said... if you have scriptural basis for another point in the timeline, i’m all ears.
>>> The effects of the Day of the Lord is described variously,
Really??? Show me ONE instance where the bible describes “day of the Lord” as something to look forward to.
Are you not aware that 2nd Thessalonians was written specifically to dispel a false teaching that the day of the Lord had already arrived??? The Thessalonians were terrified because someone claiming to be Paul or another apostle claimed by letter that they had already missed the rapture and were in “the day of the lord”.
You are not going to see my point until you actually look at ALL of the references to that phrase.
It’s not that difficult.
Use blueletterbible.org
you also keep only quoiting one verse at a time to prove your point, or quoiting daniel.
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