Posted on 06/03/2023 7:13:38 AM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal
“Every apostle on record kept it.”
Of course. Because every apostle was a Jew. They did not cease to be Jews when they believed in Jesus. Jesus Himself was a Jew and kept the Law. Christ fulfilled the Law for us. Neither Jew nor Gentile successfully kept God’s law. Only Jesus did.
“If there would have been a change in the Sabbath command, there would have been an UPROAR from the Jews, which there was not. Never mentioned. Not an issue, because it was still binding as originally written by the God.”
Binding for the Jews only. If the apostles had gone around Rome telling every citizen and slave they must not work on the Sabbath it would have caused a bigger uproar. Imagine the converted slaves discovering they were no longer slaves in Christ who were free to rebel and refuse to work for their masters on the Sabbath. The Gentiles did not observe the Sabbath though they were well aware of the Jews doing so. Nowhere did the apostles tell the Gentiles to do so. Not once.
“that definitely is heresy”
He says without any evidence.
Murder. Obvious sin. Yet the New Testament reiterates it MANY times. Idolatry. Blasphemy. Theft. False witness. Covetousness. Same with all of the other commandments... except one—physical rest on the Sabbath.
If the physical rest on the Sabbath was so important, why never say so? You are claiming it was just so obvious as to not be necessary. Except murder was not as obvious? Get real.
The apostles did not impose either the sign of circumcision or the sign of the Sabbath rest from physical work upon the Gentiles. It never happened.
“It is impossible that the Sabbath commandment could be changed, that Sunday could replace the Sabbath in the New Covenant, after the death of Jesus on the cross!”
It isn’t. It still applies to Jews as the outward sign of physical rest on Saturdays. It also applies spiritually to both Jews and Gentiles.
“The Christian church is the inheritor of the spiritual privileges and responsibilities that once belonged to literal Israel”
Spiritual. Not outward fleshly signs like circumcision or physical rest on the Sabbath.
Note also that “God has not cast off His people”, i.e. earthly people, Israel. Jews were still enjoined in the New Testament era to continue in their faithfulness to the Law of Moses. Gentiles were not.
——>You’re taking God’s earthly promises for Israel and His covenant with them and trying to make Gentile believers a part of that.
See post 220. The Kingdom of God was taken from the Jews. Literal Israel is out.
If the Sabbath commandment doesn’t apply to Christians/Gentiles? EXACTLY as written by the finder of God, then none of the other 9 commandments apply. And that would be ridiculous.
There is nothing outwardly fleshy about the 7th-day-Sabbath. It is part of God's moral, unchangeable 10 commandment law. Not the case with circumcision.
And, why does Paul mention observing and breaking the law, if it was done away with? One cannot separate the 4th commandment from the rest.
Romans 2:25Circumcision has value if you observe the LAW, but if you break the LAW, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26If a man who is not circumcised keeps the requirements of the LAW, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27The one who is physically uncircumcised yet keeps the LAW will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a LAWBREAKER.
28A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.
——>Note also that “God has not cast off His people”, i.e. earthly people, Israel. Jews were still enjoined in the New Testament era to continue in their faithfulness to the Law of Moses. Gentiles were not.
If you understood Daniel’s 70th week, you would know that literal Israel is done.
Here, let me help you...
https://www.biblelightinfo.com/dan927.htm
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.There is other evidence also but it appears that the seventh trumpet is close to the end. Where does the 42 months given to the beast in chapter 13 fit. Maybe chapter 13 happens before chapter 11.
“The 10 commandments stand as originally written by the finger of God.”
——>Right. On tablets of stone. But now He writes His laws on our hearts.
“The terms or substance of the New Covenant are the same as that of the Old Covenant, obedience to the Ten Commandments. However, the New Covenant is a better promise, a promise by God to write His laws into the hearts and minds of the people of Israel, and to remember their sins no more.”
https://www.biblelightinfo.com/covenant-seal.htm
——>Again, the fatal flaw of your contention is that you are trying to command Gentiles to do something that God never commanded Gentiles to do ever.
John 14:15If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever
1 John 2:3By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. 4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him
Matthew 5:18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Old Covenant, New Covenant...same 10 commandment laws. Now, we keep them out of love for Christ. That includes the original 4th commandment.
“There is other evidence also but it appears that the seventh trumpet is close to the end. Where does the 42 months given to the beast in chapter 13 fit. Maybe chapter 13 happens before chapter 11.”
There are a few things in Revelation that are not in chronological order, but I think the sequence of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls are numbered and in order specifically to show a chronological sequence within them. Yet, even in those sections of Revelation, there are interludes that apparently refer to things that do not fit exactly into the timeline.
“It is many events just as the seventh trumpet begins with Christ taking the reigns of power and ends with the judgment of the dead. 1000 years?”
It appears that the 7 bowls are wrapped up in the 7th trumpet, and the 7 trumpets are wrapped up in the 7th seal. Just an opinion. And I don’t think the millennial reign is treated as part of the Day of the Lord in scripture. There is a connection between the 7th trumpet and Christ claiming His rightful place to reign over the earth.
“There is nothing outwardly fleshy about the 7th-day-Sabbath. It is part of God’s moral, unchangeable 10 commandment law. Not the case with circumcision.”
The command to Abraham to circumcise all males in his family as a sign came hundreds of years before God gave Israel the command to rest on the Sabbath as a sign. It was so important that God stopped Moses on his way to Egypt (sent there by God) under penalty of death if he did not circumcise his son.
Genesis 17:10-11 NKJV
This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Exodus 4:24-26 NKJV
And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the LORD met him and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses’ feet, and said, “Surely you are a husband of blood to me!” So He let him go. Then she said, “You are a husband of blood!”—because of the circumcision.
Exodus 31:17 NKJV
It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.
Ezekiel 20:12 NKJV
Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them.
Colossians 2:11-16 NKJV
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths.
All of Hebrews 3 and 4 affirm that the Sabbath applies spiritually just like circumcision. Circumcision is of the heart. The Sabbath rest is of the heart. Nowhere in the New Testament did Christ or the apostles apply the command to physically rest to the Gentiles. And nowhere in the Old Testament was the command to physically rest given to Gentiles (except, as I’ve repeatedly pointed out, for Gentiles who happen to be in the land of Israel). The Gentiles in the Old Testament were punished by God for idolatry, murder, sexual perversion, and more, but Gentiles failing to rest on the Sabbath was never called a sin. Otherwise it would not even be a “sign” between God and Israel.
Your discourse is an example of why the church to which you belong has almost zero influence in the world or upon Christian theology and Bible doctrine.
It is wrapped up in carnal, man-focused thinking that is wholly incapable of receiving the things of the Spirit of God.
The fixation upon outward conformity, ritual, and control of the liberty of others speaks to how foreign it is from the message of Christ and the apostles as recorded in scripture. And this heresy taints the interpretation of many other scriptures (e.g. Daniel’s daily sacrifice, and Revelation’s mark of the beast) because it misapplies, misappropriates, and mishandles the Law of Moses.
I have given endless, biblical reasons that explain the meaning and place for the Sabbath in this present age of the superabounding grace of God.
You prefer bondage. And not only do you prefer it, you seek to impose it on others.
You trifle with scripture claiming “thus saith the Lord” when the Lord has not spoken.
If a person shares the health benefits of circumcision and encourages potential parents to consider having their male children circumcised, no one has a problem with that. They’re not trying to force it or claim God commands them to circumcise their boys. Likewise, if you shared that you have a personal custom of resting on the Sabbath and even fasting, and you share all of the benefits you received from doing this, no one has a problem with that. But when you claim everyone must do this out of obedience to God or that a person who does not do this does not really love God, you’re going to be called a liar. Maybe it is out of your ignorance, but it is still a lie nonetheless.
The Bible and even the early church writings of the first few centuries confirm everything I’ve been telling you. Sabbath-keeping physical rest was given to Israel by God through Moses. It was never commanded to anyone before this, and it was never commanded to Gentiles except when in the land of Israel. For Gentile believers today, God resting on the Sabbath and His command regarding it to Israel have an important spiritual significance, just like circumcision. The end.
As I said at the beginning of this discussion, I addressed the topic pretty thoroughly with you a couple of years ago and did not feel revisiting it would be fruitful. And you did not disappoint my expectations.
You exalt carnal/fleshly arguments above the Spirit-breathed word of God. God Himself has spoken about this matter and you choose to ignore it. What good would my opinions and human arguments do to persuade anyone... and more so if a person will not accept what God says as conclusive.
1 Timothy 1:5-7 NKJV
Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
——>Your discourse is an example of why the church to which you belong has almost zero influence in the world or upon Christian theology and Bible doctrine.
I could care less about my church being an influence in the world or upon Christian theology and bible doctrine. I care about the truth and obeying God.
This is MY church, by the way…Rev 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
As opposed to the church that the majority of Christians are in right now…Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice LAWLESSNESS.’
——>You prefer bondage.
No, I prefer obedience to Christ for what he did for me on the cross, as He has CLEARLY asked me to do.
Changing commandment dot and tittle to meet your skewed understanding of what Christ demands from those who claim to be His, is probably the worst thing you could have done.
God is no respecter of persons...In Romans 2, Paul made that very clear when discussing judgment. There is no chance on this earth that God would hold a “Jew” accountable for all 10 commandments, as written by the finger of Christ, and then not do the same for everyone else that has the law, which anyone who claims to be a Christian, does. (See Rev 12:17 above).
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.