Posted on 05/31/2023 8:53:42 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Rick Warren, the founder of Saddleback Church, said in part one of a video series posted online ahead of the Southern Baptist Convention that he has felt compelled to reject both the complementarian and egalitarian views of a woman’s role in the Church and in ministry after a three-year journey that led him to realize both beliefs “have unbiblical weaknesses.”
In the video released as part of his four-part series titled “SBC at the Crossroads,” Warren weighed in on complementarianism, the theological framework that says women have distinct roles in the family and church and are forbidden from holding certain offices in the church, and egalitarianism, which contends that Scripture does not warrant such restrictions.
“There are biblical alternatives to both complementarianism and egalitarianism,” he said. “And while both of those positions have strengths, they both, in my opinion, have unbiblical weaknesses, and they ignore important Bible verses. So actually, I'm neither. I'm neither one of them, I reject them both. Now, if you're honest, you'll have to admit that Paul often says things about women in Scripture that appeared to contradict each other. So tell me what you want to believe … and I'll show you the verses you have to ignore or rationalize away.”
The SBC holds to the belief that the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.
In February, the SBC Executive Committee ruled that Saddleback, which Warren founded in 1980 and has since become the largest Southern Baptist church, is no longer in “friendly cooperation” with the SBC due to “the church continuing to have a female teaching pastor functioning in the office of a pastor.”
In October 2022, Pastor Andy Wood, who succeeded retiring Warren at Saddleback, listed his wife, Stacie, as a "pastor" in his biography on the prominent California megachurch's website. And on May 7, Katie Edwards, one of the three women ordained at Saddleback in 2021, was announced as the Lake Forest campus pastor.
Warren and Saddleback Church plan to challenge expulsion from the denomination at the SBC's Annual Meeting next month in New Orleans.
In his video message, Warren said he was raised with “cultural views on women” but underwent a three-year process of biblical study and exegesis. He said this involved studying Greek words, understanding the background and context of Paul's writings and comparing passages where Paul seems to contradict himself.
“It was a difficult journey to have my biases and cultural traditions blown away by the Word of God. But when I was confronted with the truth, I had to humbly repent, no matter what my friends would think of me,” he said.
Warren said the turning point for him was Jesus' confrontation with the Pharisees, who were known for their strict adherence to traditions and rules.
“They loved making rules. They loved being legalistic. They loved protecting traditions, and they loved judging others, and they come to Jesus and they said, ‘Lord, why do you break the traditions of the elders?’ And Jesus asks them a question … ‘Why do you break the commands of God for the sake of your traditions?’ Well, that did it for me. That was the thing that pushed me over.”
Warren said he will further address the role of women in the Church in the third installment of his series, titled “New Testament Case for the Ministry of Women,” but admitted he “doesn’t expect to change many minds.”
“Honestly, it took me years of Bible study,” he said.
Warren and Saddleback Church also reportedly plan to release several videos making their case for inclusion in the SBC, according to Baptist News.
The pastor told the outlet that Saddleback is not challenging the Executive Committee’s ruling for the church’s benefit, but for five specific reasons he said “would benefit others we care about,” including a desire to “spark the thinking of messengers regarding the direction of the SBC.”
“We’re challenging the ruling on behalf of millions of SBC women whose God-given spiritual gifts and leadership skills are being wasted instead of empowered for the Great Commission,” he said. “We cannot finish the task Jesus gave us with 50% of the Church forced to sit on the bench. Great Commission Baptists believe Jesus authorized every woman to go, to make disciples, to baptize and to teach — just as he authorized every man.”
Pornography has ruined many church leadership, turning them into idolaters over male sinfulness and authority. Even blasphemous statements saying God made them to lust and women have to put up with it. Then, the other side pushes and distorts boundaries while others are completely gone into full blown demonic churches with queer ideology. Then theres Rick “Chrislam” Warren….
Boom! Right on. The cat is just a buck-chasing grifter.
Moral authority? - don’t make me laugh.
Where there any pastors? Not in the modern sense.
Lots of rationalization going on there to ignore the clear directive for God through Paul that women are not to be in positions of authority over a man in the church.
The only restriction is that women are not to be in positions of authority over men, not that women can’t minister inn churches at all ever.
Older women are commanded to instruct younger women.
We live in a day and society where women can pretend to be firemen, men can pretend to be women, men can pretend to marry men, so why not women pretending to be Christian preachers?
He just keeps digging and digging. Never liked him or his “Purpose Driven Life” that so many fell for. Now I know why.
He’s a charlatan posing as a committed follower. It is clear, the language is clear; a man leads the church. Wiggle, look, twist, finagle all you want. A man leads the church. Period.
This is a good question. Libs say it was tradition. But in every case where Paul lays out the differences, a spiritual justification is given, not a traditional argument.
1 Cor 11 - length of hair - for men, the image of God, for women, a symbol of authority.
1 Cor 14 - women keep silent - submission, as the law also says.
1 Tim 2 - women teaching - Adam formed first; Eve was deceived first
Well, even the Catholics call the priest who presides over a local parish a “pastor”. So I’d argue, yes, the office certainly existed, even if they more commonly referred to them as “presbyters” or something like that.
Take a look at 1 Cor 12:28. None of the roles in this verse really corresponds to the modern concept of a pastor.
That chapter is concerned with gifts of the Holy Spirit, not offices of the church.
Apparently, he’s never bothered to read the Bible.
Amen.
Warren is very much a political activist though hewould not admit so. He’ll play the middle road on anything that will keep him in his position.
The left like him - so that’s telling.
True pastors minister to their sheep.
Guys like this fleece their sheeple.
The passage discusses both. But if you don’t like that verse, what about 1 Tim 3? No mention of a pastor. In fact, I don’t believe that there is any mention of “pastors” anywhere in the Epistles. If there were pastors in NT times, wouldn’t there be some mention of that role?
I think he's missing the key point in Paul's teaching on women "pastors" - the usurping of men's authority. Christian women are not forbidden from fulfilling the Great Commission. They can evangelize, disciple, baptize and teach as the Lord has gifted them to do but the role of lead/head pastor over a congregation of men and women is clearly laid out in Scripture to be strictly for men. God has given men the job of being the protectors and leaders within their families as well as that authority over the children of God who are under them within the church.
Paul doesn't "contradict" himself as that would mean the Holy Spirit did and it questions the inspiration and authority of Scripture for anything else someone might want to haggle over. Paul does state that the older women were to be examples and to teach and lead the younger women and I think children are included, too. All things in God's order.
“The SBC holds to the belief that the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”
There is no office of Pastor in the Bible.
Pastoral care (i.e. shepherding the flock) is entrusted to missionaries (which is what Apostles and those mentored by them, such as Timothy, were), and elders/bishops/presbyters. Pastors (plural) is mentioned in Ephesians 4 in reference to men gifted by God to do the function of shepherding the flock. It is not an office based on the Bible or the traditions of the apostles. The apostles appointed elders (plural) in every city to lead the church in their geographic region.
The protestant office of the pastor is nothing more than the renaming of the office of a priest from the Catholic church. (However, Protestant churches do not require pastors to be celibate, and many require them to be married.)
Women ministered in the early church in a number of ways. Elders were always men, but their wives were part of the ministry team of this office, as qualifications for an elder’s wife are listed. Some widows were qualified to serve and to be financially supported for their service. These women had to meet qualifications also.
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