Posted on 06/19/2022 7:34:47 PM PDT by MurphsLaw
Deeper Eucharistic explanation for Catholics who need to understand
what goes on at Mass during Communion.
An easy watch to complete The Feast of Corpus Christi Today
14 min. YouTube Video link below:
Disagree in part...
“...we also offer sacrifices of reparation, sacrifices of atonement. It’s a gesture by which we say to God I am sorry for my sins...”
No it is not, it is you saying to God that what Jesus did on the Cross was not enough and that YOU want to DO something to help pay for your sin. The Bible says that without the SHEDDING OF BLOOD, there can be no forgiveness. JESUS already did it, the correct believers response is to THANK HIM FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE for you and rejoice, not to try to make yourself feel sorry and to try to DO something yourself to make yourself “feel” better.
As for gestures by which we say we are sorry for our sins, there is this: "First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds." (Acts 26:20, quoting St. Paul)
We do deeds of repentance not to make ourselves feel better, but out of thanksgiving, to keep turning to God continually and habitually, directing our lives back toward Him.
“If we dont feel sorry for our sins, against God and others- then we never can find a true repentance”
No, not true at all. To repent means to change your mind. We change our mind and turn away from the world and towards God. You may or may no feel “sorry” but if you do, then trying to DO something about it when Christ has already DONE everything that can be done is just pissing on the Cross.
“We approach the Eucharist as unworthy, sinners...all of us”
NO! SO terribly WRONG thinking. You approach God as a filthy sinner, worthy of NOTHING. Then you repent and turn to Jesus Christ as your SAVIOR and suddenly you BECOME “the righteousness of God IN Christ when you are born again. You approach the bread and the wine as a REDEEMED BELIEVER, everything that was necessary TO BE done on your behalf was already DONE by Jesus Christ on the Cross. You celebrate His shed Blood that washed away your sin that separated you from God pre-redemption, and you celebrate the Body of Christ, wounded and corrupted in our place and “by whose stripes we are healed”.
You CANNOT be a redeemed believer AND be a filthy unworthy sinner all at the same time.
“We ask Christ to heal our souls, by joining us in his Sacrifice.”
That is some kind of convoluted nonsense. IF you are a redeemed by the Blood of Christ believer, then Jesus Christ has ALREADY done all the “healing” to your soul that there will ever be on the Cross. And “joining us in His sacrifice”...what a load of bs. Jesus paid the price, He stated so Himself when He said on the Cross, “IT IS FINISHED”. THAT was the sacrifice, He did it. He did for us what we could never do ourselves. It is over. Jesus is NOT going to climb back up on that Cross for you or anyone else
just because someone decided to have communion.
“Catholics want more than just the - “I believe””
Just because you “want more” doesn’t mean that God or Christ is going to GIVE you “more”(whatever you consider more). Someone “believes”, so what. The Bible says that the devil also believes, and trembles. A redeemed believer not only repents and believes, but he also receives the gift of Grace offered mankind by God...Jesus Christ. And there certainly IS “more”...the wine and bread has so much more to it. If it did not, the Bible would not waste time warning about eating and drinking damnation upon ones self.
“We become sharers, partakers in His Sacrifice on Calvary”
Again, NO, you do NOT “share” in ANY way shape or form in the death of Jesus Crist on the Cross. HE did it, totally and without you or me or anyone else. HE paid for you and I with His blood, WE had NOTHING to do with it nor do we or did we “share” in it, period.
“We also must strive to be completed through his Sacrifice”
Strive away. You will discover that the more you yourself strive to DO the more you will fail at it. Jesus already DID what was necessary, He redeemed us to God by His Blood, PERIOD. HE will direct the road we are to walk through the Holy Spirit that dwells within all redeemed believers. You have 2 choices, do it His way, or strive to do it your way, and fail.
>>>”Repent means to change your mind. We change our mind and turn away from the world and towards God. You may or may no feel “sorry” but if you do, then trying to DO something about it when Christ has already DONE everything that can be done is just pissing on the Cross.”
You said...”How said is your faith belief. I feel sorry you.”
Save your sorry feelings for someone that apparently needs them, like yourself perhaps.
You said...”You buy into these antithetical beliefs of Christ and memorize them as rote. You can sin- but then ask for forgiveness from Go a WITHOUT contrition? sin is an offense against God...and you think you can repent without contrition?”
By “contrition” I assume that you mean punishment, so you feel that the more sorry you think you feel about whatever it is you have done the better, and that you must pay. There already WAS punishment AND THE payment, it happened on the Cross. Christ paid each and every debt a believer owes for and in the place of the believer who CANNOT IN ANY WAY PAY FOR IT HIMSELF. God says in the Bible that there IS NO FORGIVENESS without the shedding Blood, PERIOD. YOU CANNOT PAY, YOU HAVE NO STANDING TO PAY, ANY PAYMENT YOU ATTEMPT TO MAKE IS PISSING ON THE CROSS OF CHRIST.
You said...”That is against what Jesus taught and against what is in the Bible.”
No, that is EXACLTY what is in the Bible. Your made up foolishness comes from the pits of Hell via the Catholic Church. YOU CANNOT PAY, THERE IS NO PLACE YOU GO TO PAY CALLED PUGATORY.
You said...”You gonna repent of your sins in a meaningless way that although you have committed a sin - you are not sorry for an offense against God”
Again, you are mistakenly confusing the definition of the word REPENT. It does NOT mean that someone falls on the floor sobbing and wailing and acting like they are heart broken over something they have done or failed to do. Which, as we also know from the Bible, is all BS anyway because even our righteousness is AS FILTHY RAGS before God.
You said...”Please... thats gotta be the dumbest thing ... you repent for sins your not sorry about... great logic there...You obviously have never confessed your sins in any type of regular fashion.”
No, what is the dumbest thing is thinking that going to a priest and confessing sin and then PAYING for said sin via penance...THAT is pure ignorance of Christianity. AGAIN, YOU cannot pay, all you CAN do is Praise the Lord for what HE has done in your place. You trying to “penance” it simply is pissing on the ultimate and FINAL sacrifice that Christ has already offered you.
You said...“We approach the Eucharist as unworthy, sinners...all of us”
I said, “NO! SO terribly WRONG thinking. You approach God as a filthy sinner, worthy of NOTHING.”
You said...Your just repeating what I said...besides ...what did the Centurion say to Christ..Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word.”
And you missed my point. Now hear this...WE WERE NEVER SINNERS BECAUSE WE SINNED. WE WERE BORN SINNERS. WE SINNED BECAUSE WE WERE SINNERS AND OUR SPIRITUAL FATHER WAS THE DEVIL SO IT WAS OUR NATURE TO SIN. We approached God as a filthy sinner, justly deserving of His wrath and displeasure...UNTO SALVATION. Once saved and born again, we are NO LONGER A SINNER in the sight of God, but have been reborn into “the righteousness of God in Christ”.
“WE KNOW WE ARE NOT WORTHY- BUT yet we must incite Christ into our lives... There is NO other [automatic] way...”
What in the world are you talking about? INCITE...means to “encourage or stir up (violent or unlawful behavior)” That has NOTHING to do with Christ or Christianity. If you mean that you need to cry out and wail and gnash your teeth to gain the attention of God to something in your life, well, that is crazy also.
I said...’You CANNOT be a redeemed believer AND be a filthy unworthy sinner all at the same time.”
You said...”Stop convoluting.....we are constantly redeemed for our sins ....as we are constantly sinning...
One follows the other”
Oh, how wrong you are. NO, you are REDEEMED UNTO GOD BY THE BLODD OF JESUS CHRIST once. NO, Jesus DOES NOT climb back up on that Cross every time YOU do something stupid. NO, you do NOT get “redeemed” again over and over and over and over. ONLY unbiblically believing koolaid drinking catholics believe such nonsense.
I said...”IF you are a redeemed by the Blood of Christ believer, then Jesus Christ has ALREADY done all the “healing” to your soul that there will ever be on the Cross. And “joining us in His sacrifice”...what a load of bs.”
You said...”It is sad you can’t grasp the basics of Christianity- and you gave been fed a bunch of misdirection.....”
No, YOU are mistaking Christianity for false catholic dogma that is untrue and non biblical.
You said...We ARE baptized into Christ’s death and resurrection.....but it begins b so there... not stops there.”
Well, if you are talking about water baptism, then you are wrong there also. Water baptism is certainly the outward expression of the inward reality that a non believer has been spiritually REBORN from death unto life. But that rebirth of the spirit takes place the moment a person repents, believes, and receives the Gift of Grace offered him by God in and through Jesus Christ.
You said...”and will forgive our sins and CLEANSE us from unrighteousness.”
As a part of being born again, our sins are washed away in the Blood of Christ.
You said...””Christ works within us, everyday, but we must cooperate with his Grace...Assuming it as entitlement is B.S.”
It has nothing to DO with being “entitled”, it has to do with a redeemed born again believer walking down life’s path WITH Christ.
I said...”Jesus paid the price, He stated so Himself when He said on the Cross, “IT IS FINISHED”. THAT was the sacrifice, He did it.”
You said...”NO- CHRIST WAS NOT YET FINISHED WITH HIS redemption....IF THAT WERE THE CASE....HIS Resurrection was NOT necessary.”
Again, Christ said it was FINISHED on the Cross. You can say “no it wasn’t” all you like, but you would be wrong. THE BLOOD SACRIFICE necessary to redeem mankind, trapped in his sinful state by his dead to God spirit, to God took place and was FINISHED on the Cross. Do You know where Jesus went after that? He went to the part of Hell call “Paradise” to preach the Gospel message to the “captivity captive”. ALL of the believers in God who had died up to the point of the Cross were trapped there, in Paradise, awaiting their Savior. The could not enter Heaven yet because they had never been born again until that point in time. The Bible says that when Jesus left Hell, he took all of those people with Him.
You said...”UNTIL his Resurrection it was not fulfilled on the Cross. THAT would just be a Roman execution without his Resurrection...”
Nope, Jesus Himself said that YOU ARE WRONG.
You said...Christ’s sacrifice was not completed until his RESURRECTION...The Fourth Cup of the Passover celebration is completed with the Rabii saying - It is finished...
His Paschal sacrifice, the Passover, was not completed until he said after the Fourth Cup...”It is finished”
Again, then you and the catholic church are saying that Jesus was wrong in what He said on the Cross. Sorry, but I will chose to believe what Jesus said.
You said...For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.”
Not sure what you intend to mean here, has nothing to do with what you are talking about.
You said...Stop using the Cross to absolve yourself of responsibility. Christ has done everything for us.
Again, I don’t know what pity party you intend to attend your entire life but the Cross is EXACTLY what absolves believers of the penalty of sin.
“You said...He has done nothing for us, if we feel we do not need to allow him to live in us, and work within us.”
Finally, you have stated something that we can agree on, amazing.
“Etymologically it implies a breaking of something that has become hardened. The early Christian writers in speaking of the nature of contrition sometimes insist on the feeling of sorrow, sometimes on the detestation of the wrong committed (Augustine in P.L., XXXVII, 1901, 1902; Chrysostom, P.G., XLVII, 409, 410). Augustine includes both when writing hardened).—In Holy Writ nothing is more common than exhortations to repentance: “I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live” (Ezech., xxxiii, 11); “Except you do penance you shall all likewise perish” (Luke, xiii, 5; cf. Matt., xii, 41). At times this repentance includes exterior acts of satisfaction (Ps. vi, 7 sqq.); it always implies a recognition of wrong done to God, a detestation of the evil wrought, and a desire to turn from evil and do good. This is clearly expressed in Ps. 1 (5-14): “For I know my iniquity… To thee only have I sinned, and have done evil before thee…. Turn away thy face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. Create a clean heart in me”, etc. More clearly does this appear in the parable of the Pharisee and the publican (Luke, xviii, 13), and more clearly still in the story of the prodigal(Luke, xv, 11-32): “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before thee: I am not worthy to be called thy son”. [This part is why you are mixed up about totally biblical unworthiness in the sight of sin] And as like the gentile Centurion said to Christ-.... 8 But the centurion answered him, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed. NATURE OF CONTRITION.—This interior repentance has been called by theologians “contrition”. It is defined explicitly by the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, ch. iv de Contritione): “a sorrow of soul and a hatred of sin committed, with a firm purpose of not sinning in the future”. The word contrition itself in a moral sense is not of frequent occurrence in Scripture (cf. Ps. 1, 19).
Etymologically it implies a breaking of something that has become hardened. St. Thomas Aquinas in his Commentary on the Master of the Sentences thus explains its peculiar use: “Since it is requisite for the remission of sin that a man cast away entirely the liking for sin which implies a sort of continuity and solidity in his mind, the act which obtains forgiveness is termed by a figure of speech ‘contrition’” (In Lib. Sent. IV, dist. xvii; cf. Supplem. Q. i, a. 1). This sorrow of soul is not merely speculative sorrow for wrong done, remorse of conscience, or a resolve to amend; it is a real pain and bitterness of soul together with a hatred and horror for sin committed; and this hatred for sin leads to the resolve to sin no more.”
Wow, what a load of catholic dogma bs.
“IF YOUR REPENTANCE CARRIES NO SORROW.... YOUR SINS CANNOT BE ABSOLVED...AND YOU WILL CARRY THEM WITH YOU.”
Nope, you are in unbiblical catholic crazy land here. In the first place, sins are NOT “absolved”. We are NEVER free from blame, guilt, or responsibility...we are forgiven. We sin and the Blood of Christ paid for it on the Cross. He who knew no sin BECAME sin for us, and His Blood pays the penalty that is actually due US. You cannot penance it away, because without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness available. It has NOTHING to do with sorrow or wailing or gnashing of teeth, it is the Grace of God, pure and simple.
“YOU WILL BE FORGIVEN THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST...”
Nope, you are forgiven by the Grace of God through what Jesus did on the Cross.
“But you must have the contrition as the Prodigal Son had.
A VERY BIBLICAL premise in approaching sin.”
And again, no, you must REPENT. It has NOTHING to do with sorrow OR contrition. It has to do with changing your mind to be in align with what God says in the Bible.
No, that is EXACLTY what is in the Bible. Your made up foolishness comes from the pits of Hell via the Catholic Church. YOU CANNOT PAY, THERE IS NO PLACE YOU GO TO PAY CALLED PUGATORY.
Where do you get this pay deal? Catholic teaching on Purgatorio... is as a purging- as a purification... as taught in the bible.”
Nope, not taught in the Bible anywhere. It does not exist, it never did exist, it is nothing but made up catholic bs used in the past to sucker people out of money to speed along their dead loved ones supposed journey through it. Nothing but made up lies and bs that has ZERO biblical standing.
“Christ himself tells the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32) This clearly means not all sins are forgiven in this age- and that a sinner can be absolved of sins after death as well.
Christ clearly spells out MORE THAN ONE REALM Where sins are forgiven.
Oh for pete’s sake, you really are drinking the catholic koolaid. What it CLEARLY means is that the Pharisees were being willfully blind and chose to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit through Jesus to the devil. Thus their blasphemy against the Spirit was their final rejection of the Grace of God, Jesus Christ. This passage has NOTHING to do with some fictional place called purgatory...and believing that it does is just allowing yourself to believe in catholic made up bs.
“You can ignore this passage as you wish- or read into it what you need but there it is...”
Again, made up foolishness for fools to believe.
“St. PAUL tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work - YES OUR WORKS ARE JUDGED- And what does he say if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). So tell me... WHERE DOES THIS HAPPEN-
Whatever this “loss” is... it can’t be happening in hell- since no one is able to be saved from hell.
AND also- St. Paul can’t mean it to be heaven, since 1. NO SIN- nothing unclean may enter heaven - 2. there is no suffering (“fire”) there in Heaven in the Bible. So do you ever ask yourself where this occurs?”
It happens with the fire that comes with the judgement of Christ on the day of the Lord. Only believers will see this, and yes, while all those who trust in Jesus for their salvation are spared for the sake of Jesus Christ, what they did seemingly for Christianity will be judged. Believers will suffer loss of those rewards for that which is burned that does not stand up to the test and will receive heavenly reward for that which does. Again, it has NOTHING to do with the made up fictional place called purgatory.
“We....the only explanation - unquestioned or denied for 1500 years of Christianity is what the Church has always taught...and that the Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains these passages are even possible. That’s what you need to know about the purgation if sins.”
And again, why anyone would believe any of this made up non biblical catholic crap is a mystery.
“So yes or no- are you not sorry for sinning against God?”
All redeemed believers will develop feelings of sorrow, guilt, frustration, and whatever else when they stumble on the path they are walking with the Lord. But those feelings have NOTHING to do with the forgiveness freely offered and given them by Jesus Christ through His shed Blood on the Cross. The fact is that Jesus doesn’t need your sorrow, He did what He did on the Cross because He loved us WAY before we loved Him.
>No, what is the dumbest thing is thinking that going to a priest and confessing sin ...”
>>REALLY? The dumbest? You don’t believe your Bible...”
The Bible says to confess your sins to one another. That’s how you shine light where darkness has things hidden. It has NOTHING to do with going to a priest to confess something and then thinking you are doing something by reciting hail marys or pushing a penny around with your nose or whatever so called penance takes place. That is just MORE catholic made up bs.
“Catholics believe what the Bible says. [Properly Informed Catholics that is.]”
No, that’s the problem, they believe in goofy made of bs from a long corrupt church because they foolishly believe that being a member of said corrupt church is what buys their ticket into Heaven. It’s just like Nancy Pelosi wandering around the Vatican, she believes that as long as she is “catholic” she has a get to Heaven free card when in fact not only do her hands drip with the shed innocent blood of countless innocent unborn but she is herself wholly corrupt of even the teachings OF the church she foolishly thinks gets her to Heaven.
“Your entire notion of the Forgiveness of sins goes against the Bible.”
And again, you are incorrect.
“Christ WOULD NOT have told Peter first- then later the Apostles that they will bind and loose to forgive sins....And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Now WHY would Christ have to give the Power to forgive sins?... if he had already taken care of that on the Cross...?”
According to the Old Testament, ONLY God can forgive sin. In the New testament, Jesus forgives sin, which would be blasphemy were Jesus not God. The corrupted catholic church arrogates to its priests the supposed ability to forgive sins because of this verse. But the Bible is clear, “Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man(Jesus) is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins.” In believing on the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ, a redeemed believer has both one hundred percent right standing with God AND the forgiveness of sins. The power and keys to the kingdom was given to Peter and was fulfilled by him alone. Only in mankinds utmost arrogance would the concept of a sinful human being wearing robes have some divine authority to stand in the place of God Himself and supposedly forgive the sins of others.
“Does that verse make any sense then to you? Why would converts have to confess sins to these Apostles? WHY CANT THEY GO STRAIGHT TO CHRIST?”
I assume you are talking about the verse, “many who had believed now came forward, confessing their deeds...”.
It does not say ALL that believed, and it does not say that they confessed them specifically to “the apostles” and it certainly does not say that because they confessed something that they were given penance and were forgiven by someone else. Frankly, the catholic church in its corruption has woven together a tapestry of lies that allow it to control the lives and pocketbooks of its members. Peter was NOT the first Pope, Peter did not pass anything down in a line of succession to catholic priests, and CERTAINLY not the divine power to forgive anyone of anything.
BECAUSE Christ did away with sacrificial Atonement fir ones sins- as he was the ultimate sin offering...”
The sacrificial system of animal sacrifice used the blood of innocent animals to cover up the sins of man. It did not forgive sin, it merely covered it so as to not allow that sin to be a wall between God and a believer in God. ONLY the Blood of Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin, and it is the ONLY way thereby a believers sin is washed away, period.
“And that the Church would become a place where sins are Forgiven.”
Nope, a believers sins were all paid for on the Cross, past, present, and future. You want to drink false koolaid and believe that some priest(maybe even a homosexual or pedophile one) can forgive sin, well then just go on being fooled.
“There’s no middle ground here... either Christ has given certain men the power to forgiving sins - or his Bible verses are nonsensical...I don’t think Christ spoke nonsense.”
The ONLY nonsense here is the false catholic dogma that you intend to believe.
Yea, this is getting long.
“Thomas Aquinas? St. Augustine? BS? That’s not a well reasoned thought.. You have no idea that your newer Christian “dogma” came from that Catholic bs.”
I actually disagree here. The Roman Catholic Church did indeed START and carry on the traditions of the Catholic Church. And as the Church grew and became more corrupt, they began adding more and more non biblical beliefs and traditions. Eventually Luther rebelled against the church due to his unwillingness to go along with those corruptions and non biblical additions of scripture. Looking back on it, there is little doubt as to why the corrupt leaders of the Catholic church did not want the scriptures to be translated for the common man...because the common man would also eventually realize that some of the “traditions” and teachings that they were being subjected to were little more than corruptions of scripture meant to benefit those in power and to keep rein over those that were not.
“Sure, some doctrine you reject- Purgatory, Mary, The Pope, The Real Flesh in the Eucharist”
I certainly reject a lot of the Catholic traditions. But I have no problem with a “Pope”, duly elected to lead the Catholic denomination in any way they see fit. But only a fool would believe that the priesthood is passed down from Peter unto whomever happens to become the Pope by now, as it can easily be seen throughout the ages that any number of them were corrupt in their own right and manipulated scriptures into non biblical traditions. I would like to believe that they did so, in their reasonings anyway, for the good of the Church, so that the end justified the means. But by now it is more than obvious by anyone that people elected “Pope” are not divine and what they have to say is CERTAINLY not the same as the written Word of God Himself...and anything that they do say or have said that does not agree with scripture is in and of itself, blasphemy. As for Mary, certainly reverence is deserved for she who allowed God to use her to bring for the Light of the World. But not worship, that alone is reserved for God. As for Eucharist, or Communion as the case may be, I do not subscribe to the idea of many denominations that is is nothing more than a symbolic gesture that believers do. I do not know one way or the other about the transfiguration but it is very clear from scripture that it is about FAR more than just a symbolic gesture. The Bible says that people are weak or sick or die before their time because they fail to rightly discern communion, so there has to be way more to it than what is commonly taught by some.
“but many false ideals the Catholic Church rejected long ago 2D- so you don’t have to- Arianism. Pelagianism, Montanism etc. i know you can’t see the Catholic Church as I would wish- but that is where your Faith originates from.”
No, my faith originates from the Bible, the written Word of the living God. That which God Himself decided we as believers should be privy to. But Christianity spread far and wide long before the beginnings of the Catholic church. People heard the word and the Gospel message of Jesus Christ and got born again in those times, and they spread that Word and believers popped up all over...all without anything Catholic. So no, the Catholic church was simply the first of the denominations, so to speak.
“You may not want to think in any term of gratitude- but without, or if not for, the Catholic Church...We, both of us, no doubt would be praising Allah today, as Muslims. All “believers” should believe this little fact.”
Oh my, you REALLY have a belly full of Koolaid there! You think God incapable of handling the onslaught of one of the Kingdoms of the Cults? Pretty certain that God could have used anyone He needed to in order to stop the advancement of the Islamic doctrine of devils from taking over the world.
“Thankfully, your idea of “We are NEVER free from blame, guilt, or responsibility...we are forgiven. is not Christianity at all. And I know you don’t really believe that either... you have to say it as a response.”
Actually, we see it EVERY SINGLE DAY of our lives. Death is all around us, every single day. From the dead on the road animal to the murderers walking the streets. God appointed Adam to represent us, and all he had to do was NOT push the shiny red button. But he could not resist and neither could any of we, and he sinned exactly like all of us would have given the opportunity. Thus WE ushered into God’s perfect world the death and destruction we see every single day.
“Talk about your Catholic guilt !!! Even God said He would forget our sins...! Whoa, that’s child’s play for you vs. your self-torture then!...lol”
I don’t know about Catholic guilt, never having been a Catholic. I was a Scout in a Catholic Troop as a youth, since all my friends were catholic at the time. They did not appear to be guilty feeling that I can remember. Either way, indeed, because of what Christ did on the Cross, indeed, my sins are washed away, forever, gone, over, period. When God looks at me and any other redeemed believer, He does NOT see a filthy sinner worthy of His disfavor...He sees His Son, Jesus Christ. Believers, redeemed and born again, ARE the righteousness of God in and through Jesus Christ. That still does not mean that when we see the corruption of this world that has come about through the introduction of sin, that we ourselves can not recognize our part in that.
“You really wouldn’t adhere to a Christ who takes away the sin of the world... and leaves the sinner with a paralyzing lifetime of grief through shame and guilt. A lifetime... of neurosis... wouldn’t the shrinks love that scenario.”
I think there is a difference to be seen there. Recognizing our part in the desecration of what God did in this Creation only reinforces our gratitude and thankfulness to Him for the Grace He has bestowed upon us.
“Christ says to the adulteress, go and sin no more- no one condemns you- not even HERSELF. When Christ tells the paralytic his sins are Forgiven- then - RISE and pick up your mat and go home. The sinner cannot “rise” and move forward if he is paralyzed by shame and guilt of sin.
NO.”
Again, the difference between recognizing ones part in God’s plan for man and agonizing over it are different things.
“Christ absolves us if our sins- in persona Christi- through the Priest - who now offers the New Covenant sacrifice to his followers-”
No, it has NOTHING to do with “the priest”. The Bible says that ALL believers are Kings and Priests. The removal of the sin debt we owe by Christ is a personal thing, between the believer and his God. The Catholic church has nothing to do with it.
“And so then it is God who Forgives us for our sins. for THIS is what it also means - that no one can come to the Father, unless they go through Christ first...”
Not “first”...EVER. NO ONE comes to the Father by by ME is what Jesus said. A priest is NOT Jesus, nor God, nor a stand in for either. Now, I would say that a person who intends to call themselves a catholic might, and perhaps should, say otherwise. Since I also believe that if someone signs up to become a catholic, then they had better be abiding by whatever the Catholic church says, period. Same with any other denomination, Baptist, Lutheran, whatever. Otherwise, they are actually a “whatever” in name only, and are not actually a part of that which they espouse to be.
“>Nope, you are forgiven by the Grace of God through what Jesus did on the Cross.”
“Nope. NOT ACCORDING TO ST. PAUL- Without the Resurrection, the dead do not rise, and the Crucifixion is just a Roman execution. Dig it:14 if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. You can call this wrong or Catholic bs- but I won’t contradict St. PAUL- or say he is in error.
You need to check this scripture out a bit more closely. The Cross is important part- but you need more.”
Obviously we are coming at this from 2 different ways, you from the idea that salvation happens as a whole and includes everything all together...and I from the standpoint that the events that took place are a sequence of events that mean different things to a believer.
I believe first that many are called but few are chosen. I think those that are called by God unto salvation in and through Jesus Christ will at some point in their lives be introduced to the Gospel message.
Then the Bible says that Faith cometh by hearing the Word of God, so at that point the faith necessary to believe is imparted to the sinner.
Then the sinner has to make a choice, they can use the God given faith to believe, which will wet off the chain of events towards their salvation. Or they can choose to not exercise that God given faith and reject what God is offering them.
Anyway, say a sinner now has exercised their God given faith to believe. They recognize their need for a Savior so they repent and choose then to receive Gods free gift of Grace, and they receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior into their heart. At that moment, their spirit is reborn, from a dead to God spirit aligned with this world, to a redeemed to God spirit headed for an eternal relationship with Him.
“>And again, no, you must REPENT. It has NOTHING to do with sorrow OR contrition. It has to do with changing your mind to be in align with what God says in the Bible.”
“Again, you do not understand the Prodigal Gospel.”
I know only 1 Gospel, Christ crucified in our place, doing for us what we cannot do ourselves, thus redeeming us to God by His Blood.
“Show me “where in the Bible” the doctrine of the Trinity is- or the Incarnation- or where Bible alone or Faith alone are found in the Bible....?? “ZERO biblical standing”..as you say...Nothing unclean will enter into Heaven.”
Ah, so you are making an argument for things “made up” that are not directly printed in scripture. The difference is that the results always agree with other scripture.
“Your beef is what Christ said in Matt. A sin against the Holy Spirit- by Pharisees or ANYONE ELSE- WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN! Now IF that’s ALL CHRIST NEEDED TO SAY...
But he CLEARLY CLARIFIES....”NOT in this age- OR - THE age to come. Clearly a distinction between TWO things...”
What EXACTLY do you think a “sin against the HS is”? Here is a hint, the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit about Jesus. So, to deny Jesus Christ is Lord is a sin against the Holy Spirit. So no, people who reject Jesus will not be forgiven, ever.
“This” age to come” cannot be involving Heaven, hell or our earthly life. So where is it? Or do we ignore?”
Depends a lot on how you intend to define the word “age”, but what is to “come” from this point in Gods plan for man is...
the Rapture, all believers removed from the face of the earth
the antchrist and the 7 year tribulation
the battle at the end of the tribulation
Jesus sets up His 1000 year rein in Jerusalem
the final battle at the end of that 1000 years
a new heavens and a new earth
eternity
“Purgatory is supernatural, not fictional. Like Miracles and the Resurrection- Christianit has a supernatural quality we are not to know or comprehend. Yes Purgatory is a state of being- in some realm- we just dont know how- but we know-why.Tell yourself whatever you must- but Christ did not say” fire comes on the day of the Lord”- he could have easily said that sinning against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or on judgement day...
that would have been easier....and then we also have to ignore Matt 25 sheep’s and goats....that doesn’t include the need of a purifying “fire” as well...but no time for that”
No, purgatory is a fictional place made up by the catholic church. It doesn’t exist in the physical, the spiritual, or anywhere else except in the minds of confused catholics.
“Well it’s existed for almost 2000 years- so ther must be something to it....But that raises the question- Who invented your faith belief/Church? and how long has your particular brand been around for?”
There IS something to it, unfortunately it is corrupt.
“Why was it necessary to succeed Judas with another?
A quick search of the succession of the Bishop’s written about in the early Church fathers explains why Christ would not allow his Church to die out after John passed away. 1st Clement is a good start.”
Casting lots to arrive at Matthias is a far cry from being chosen by Jesus Himself. Perhaps that is why the Bible tells very little about his life and death. But he did witness what Jesus had done, and so therefore was a decent choice to make the 12 twelve again. But that has NOTHING to do with the catholic church.
“>The sacrificial system of animal sacrifice used the blood of innocent animals to cover up the sins of man. It did not forgive sin, it merely covered it so as to not allow that sin to be a wall between God and a believer in God.”
“Wrong! Stop twisting scripture for your own purposes.
The sin offerings for the Jews was covenantal AND REQUIRED of God by Moses for one purpose. It was not about “covering” up sin. While the Jews erred- that was NOT how it was to be...Moses was told by God otherwise...”
And again, NOTHING takes away sin but the Blood of Jesus...but you are again bringing up a sacrificial system for the JEWS that has NOTHING to do with Christianity. But it doesn’t surprise me that the corrupt catholic church has borrowed something from that to inject into a false teaching for catholics.
“Christ was a devout Jew... His Sacrifice for us is connected to the Sacrifice of the Jews... regardless of how the Jews fell away.”
No, the animal sacrifice of the Jews was but a shadow of Christ, the Messiah and the Lamb of God to come. Animal sacrifice is wholly worthless now since mankind is not in the dispensation of Grace.
“But the Koolaid to me is thinking you can sin as you wish-”
Believers are certainly forgiven and free forever from the chains and bondage to the Law and to the sin issue. Can a believer “sin as they wish”? What dos the Bible say?
1 Cor 10: “22 Are we trying to provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He? 23 “Everything is permissible,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible,” but not everything is edifying. 24 No one should seek his own good, but the good of others.…”
“yes some “Christians” believe you can cheat on your spouse, hurt others, or even kill someone- and you are still on your way- all because Christ has already forgiven them.”
Lots of things redeemed believers might or can do. Since there are consequences to every action and many inactions, they had better be prepared for that if that is what they choose to do.
“But this presents a problem with your thinking about sin- and I’m not sure you can square this. But if Christ has already forgiven our sins- with nothing else required - “added”... then why aren’t Pelosi and the pedophile priest sins not forgive- or Ravi or Joel for that matter?
They ALL “believe” in Jesus - and will tell you he is Lord...”
Well, that is another issue. There is a saying, being in a church doesn’t make you a christian any more than being in a garage makes you a car. Likewise, being a catholic doesn’t make you a christian either. Only God knows the state of a persons heart and the state of their spirit, whether born again or still dead to him. We can only get SOME sort of idea about others by what they confess. Do you REALLY believe that a born again redeemed to God by the Blood of Christ believer would stand up proudly for the murder of the innocent unborn? Either way, it is more than OBVIOUS that she stands proudly against the Catholic Church...so why is she and Biden still aloud to call themselves Catholic?
“So if Christ has paid the price for ALL sins- aren’t these Believers (Pelosi, et al.) saved as well as you and me?
ALL sins being forgiven?”
The only biblical answer to that might be “To them gave He power: To become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His Name.” John 1:12 Unfortunately we can only see the deeds of those who claim to believe on His name, only God can see the truth.
THIS is a perfect example of catholic corruption...
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